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Starcraft II


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#1
Khosani

Khosani

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So, who plays?

Platinum Zerg on NA server here. ;D Haven't laddered in a couple weeks but I been practicing a build order that I think is gonna push me into diamond. Weakest matchup is probably zvz. :(

Can't wait until the warpgate nerf comes. Seems like half of the tosses 4gate against zerg and all 4gate against each other. :/

btw name/code is Khosani 668

#2
KeksX

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The warp gate change won't do anything, 4gate will be still pretty viable. Only difference is that you got the first sentry out earlier on 3gate expand.
KeksX.535 EU Zerg here; still only top diamond but masters in a few days and then aiming for top 200!

EDIT:
About that topic what leagues are, what starcraft 2 requires and the differences between real pros and just mediocre players.

The difference between a bronzeplayer and a master player is almost nothing. I used to think that and I was pretty bad. My MMR was about platin/diamond and you could say I deserved to be there.
Then I started playing more seriously and trained a lot, now I'm barely losing at all and jumped from plat/dia to top diamond, getting master leaguers and crushing them.

What do you need to do as a Zerg in Starcraft 2?
You need to inject, for me it is
tab tab (on queen now)
U for Inject
click on hatchery
tab tab (back to army now)
6 APM needed, 4 more for each base. So on 3 bases I need 14 APM to inject perfetctly. 14.
What does it take to build a unit? I press 4, get all my hatches, press S and then the hotkey for the unit several times.
Micro is almost always just a-moving your army because you barely need micro at all.
So to macro perfectly you need about 80 APM. That includes:
- Injecting
- Checking for injects by tabbing through your queens and look for energy count
- Building units
- Building tech

What do people do?
Let's take <name removed, random zerg pro player>.
If you ever watched him play he's like
"OH YEA CLICK THERE CLICKITKY CLICK THAT ROACH NEEDS TO BE THERE NONONO NOT THERE YEA THERE EXACTLY" (APM raises to 300)
"OH AND NOW THIS ZERGLING LOL LOOK AT HIM CUTE ZERGLING LETS MOVE HIM THERE!"
And his queens are like "DUDE WE HAVE 100 ENERGY FFS INJECT PL0X".
He loses because he has no units -> zerg UP LOL
Sorry but barely 50 players in EU/NA are really good, the vast majority wins of the simple fact that cheeses, gimmicky tactics and your units win the game, not u. (But if you know that gimmicky and cheesy stuff as well AND have good mechanics, you'll most likely crush them -> IdrA, TT1, Ret, Mondragon)

The reason why IdrA beats almost every EU/NA player in a standard game is not that he's a god, he simply keeps in mind what I just said.
You have to inject, you have to build stuff, you have to keep your mins low.
Just look at replays/casts of "pro players" and focus on their things. You'll see that they don't play differently than most bronze players, they just know good cheeses and the theory - but their mechanics are bad.

This is why starcraft brood war was so good. When you were bronze (D-) you sucked at the game and you only went into silver when you started to work on your mechanics. Then you got into a highe league (Maybe D+, C-). And if you reached A+ or something like that it meant that you were REALLY GOOD because you couldnt just cheese your way up there, it's impossible.

Starcraft 2, a master league player gets easily knocked out by a bronzeplayer (I saw this so often it's not even funny) because
a) master league players are not neccesarily good
B) cheese and gimmicky tactics are an important factor.

I think the fact that I'm constantly bashing master league players now, due to the fact that they're bad and I know all this stuff proofs the point somehow..And I'm not even good yet at all this stuff.
I'm not on pro level but I'm certainly better than many people on battle.net(as a diamond player, now thats odd? :P) just because of the fact that I actually care about the important stuff, and if blizzard will balance their game out this is what everyone will have to do.

If you don't believe me:
Check the replays of the koreans, players like idra/tt1 etc and then compare their play to players that you think are EU/Na pros.

Several things you can look for:
Around 7~ minutes almost every good build gets around 50 supply. I promise you that those "pro" players barely have 40 supply at that time often times. I once saw nerchio having 36 supply - that was hilarious.
If zerg players, check the queens. If they have more than 30 energy they are forgetting injects with almost 10-15 seconds delay, the higher the energy the worse the player.
If protoss players, check their warpgates. A good protoss player warps in ASAP, so if they constantly miss warpins it's the same for injecting. Also check the energy on nexi.
And overall check the supply counts, what they actually look on(if they're in their base all the time it's prolly pretty bad),
their scouting information and reaction and so on.

I say >80% of those so called pro players will fail at almost every point that I stated above. This is what makes starcraft 2 look shitty compared to sc:bw.
This leads to the conclusion that SC2 doesnt require that much skill and there are actually so few people that are really "skilled" at what they do.

EDIT:
Reading your first post again, you just proofed my point. You think you have a build order that takes you into diamond. Now, how much skill do you need to find a good build order in the internet?

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#3
Khosani

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The warp gate change won't do anything, 4gate will be still pretty viable


From personal experience, when I lose to 4gate it's always by a few seconds. Spine crawlers half-finished, for example. Any sort of nerf is going to help me immensely. But they are still playing around with the numbers so who knows what we'll see when it comes out.

The difference between a bronzeplayer and a master player is almost nothing. I used to think that and I was pretty bad. My MMR was about platin/diamond and you could say I deserved to be there.
Then I started playing more seriously and trained a lot, now I'm barely losing at all and jumped from plat/dia to top diamond, getting master leaguers and crushing them.


Let's find a random bronze player and put him in a best of 5 against a Diamond player. He almost literally has no chance. I'm not sure how you can say the difference is 'almost nothing'. Yeah, there are people out there that just cheese their way up the ladder until they get at the level where their opponents are actually properly scouting and it doesn't work so much anymore.

And you said you could get into master's in 2 weeks. So how long have you been playing SC2? You aren't master's league yet. It sounded like you were implying that SC2 was so casual that anyone could get into master's in 2 weeks. The reality is that someone with little experience will be hard pressed to get out of bronze in 2 weeks... depending on how much they play/practice.

As for the rest of your post, it seems like your chief complaint is that most people try to work their way up the ladder by cheesing. You know what? As a zerg player, that burns my ass too because there's not much zerg can do to cheese besides maybe 7rr (which I've done like twice). But then you say that IdrA and yourself easily beat these players because you are genuinely the better player'. Ok, what's the complaint then? That you got serious and trained and are now winning a lot? When I lose to cheesy bullshit, it's usually my own fault for failing to scout. When I lose games, most of the time it's within the first 10 minutes or so. As you continue to win you are going to get placed against higher level players until you start getting beat. Just like if there is a bronze player that deserves to be in gold, he will roll his opponents until he gets there. What exactly is your complaint?

Starcraft 2, a master league player gets easily knocked out by a bronzeplayer (I saw this so often it's not even funny) because
a) master league players are not neccesarily good


I'm gonna have to ask for proof in the form of videos.

Around 7~ minutes almost every good build gets around 50 supply. I promise you that those "pro" players barely have 40 supply at that time often times. I once saw nerchio having 36 supply - that was hilarious.


This is misleading. I can make drones until 50 supply, while somebody makes 25 drones and then makes 25 roaches, their supply is going to be 75. Some units, like roaches, inflate supply count. In rebuttle, I have to ask you: Have you ever seen any of Spanishiwa's recent games? He is behind in supply for the first 10 minutes but that's because he spends all his early resources on drones, spine crawlers, and tech, and then once he's ready he moves out and roflstomps with good tactics and keeps up with good macro. Supply =/= progress in the game. And I've never even heard of nerchio. lol

Sounds like you have a good idea of how to play zerg, but if you can't actually execute that then it doesn't matter. Just like these cheesy build orders you are complaining about. If they are winning, then the players are executing them with good efficacy and micro. If you don't scout said cheesy build, then yeah you are probably going to lose against it. Scouting is one of the most important things to do; it's probably my greatest weakness.

Reading your first post again, you just proofed my point. You think you have a build order that takes you into diamond. Now, how much skill do you need to find a good build order in the internet?


It's moreso that as Zerg I've never really had any plan going into a particular game; just that I 14gas/pool and then properly react to what the other player is doing. As of now my plan is psy's fast upgraded zerglings, into infestors, into spiretech/broodlords. But again, your build order will only be as good as you are able to execute it.

However, I will agree with you that all-ins and cheese are too effective. . . as a zerg player I share your pain. LOL But whenever this happens to me, I look at the game and a majority of the time I lost because I didn't scout well.

#4
KeksX

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From personal experience, when I lose to 4gate it's always by a few seconds. Spine crawlers half-finished, for example. Any sort of nerf is going to help me immensely. But they are still playing around with the numbers so who knows what we'll see when it comes out.

20 ingame seconds are nothing when it comes to 4gate...


Yeah, there are people out there that just cheese their way up the ladder until they get at the level where their opponents are actually properly scouting and it doesn't work so much anymore.

While this might be true, the people wont get demoted because they still have like <50% winratios.

And you said you could get into master's in 2 weeks. So how long have you been playing SC2? You aren't master's league yet. It sounded like you were implying that SC2 was so casual that anyone could get into master's in 2 weeks. The reality is that someone with little experience will be hard pressed to get out of bronze in 2 weeks... depending on how much they play/practice.

As I said, I was pretty bad before I realised how the game actually works. ( In fact: A former sc:bw semi-pro taught me how to actually play.)

Now that I found out how all that stuff works and I try to do this I barely lose a game. I'm literally on a 50wins / 10losses ratio, the losses are vs cheese.

You would laugh your ass off when you'd see my games. For example 4 base zerg vs 2 base terran on metalopolis close pos!

What exactly is your complaint?

You can't scout properly and there are no "all around safe builds" for toss / zerg, so abusing this fact will win you games. That is what 99% of the ladderplayers do, as you already stated. That is something that indicates that less skill is required to be in the high-level league.

I'm gonna have to ask for proof in the form of videos.

Watch IdrA's showmatch vs some random guy that gave him money to play him. He got 2 games with pure cheese.


Supply =/= progress in the game. And I've never even heard of nerchio. lol

Nerchio is some semi-pro where people say that he has talent and all that stuff,
but:
Supply IS progress. Best example is 3gate expand.
If you play a solid 3gate expand you get 52 supply at the 7 minute mark with roundabout 6 sentries, 2 zealots, 2 stalkers. So about 20 supply on units and 32 workers.
Many progamers have at this time 3 sentries, 1 zealot, 1 stalker and 25 workers. So in this case supply = progress.

Sounds like you have a good idea of how to play zerg, but if you can't actually execute that then it doesn't matter. Just like these cheesy build orders you are complaining about. If they are winning, then the players are executing them with good efficacy and micro. If you don't scout said cheesy build, then yeah you are probably going to lose against it. Scouting is one of the most important things to do; it's probably my greatest weakness.

Scouting is one of my best but there are things you can't scout. Ever tried to ovi sac vs a solid terran? It's impossible. You will never get an ovi into a terran's base because 2 marines will kill him before he even reaches the border of the terrain.

My mechanics are better than most people I play and this is why I win. I don't win because I 8pool all the time, BUT:
Other people do this. They are aware of some abusive things and they win because of that.

I, as a player, know those things as well BUT actually take care of my mechanics(again, I'm not good, but at least I try) and this results into the fact that I beat everyone that just plays abusive without any good mechanics, and this is the case for master league players as well as for bronzeplayers. The only difference here is that some of them are that good in being abusive that my mechanics alone won't help. Also, if they just begin to get somewhat good mechanics it gets impossible to beat.
So yea, my mechanics are not really the deciding factor, often times I just get lucky.

Just one example: I barely miss an inject within the first 10 minutes and my supply is always >50 after 7 minutes, that alone wins me games. But thats nothing "abusive" or "cheesy" it's just me being able to play somewhat good.

The next point is that some pro players don't do that, they just win abusively and don't actually play good.

It's moreso that as Zerg I've never really had any plan going into a particular game; just that I 14gas/pool and then properly react to what the other player is doing. As of now my plan is psy's fast upgraded zerglings, into infestors, into spiretech/broodlords. But again, your build order will only be as good as you are able to execute it.

However, I will agree with you that all-ins and cheese are too effective. . . as a zerg player I share your pain. LOL But whenever this happens to me, I look at the game and a majority of the time I lost because I didn't scout well.

Here is a promise:
Don't care about that fancy stuff. Train how to inject, how to macro, how to not get supply blocked, focus on creep spread and tech, and you will get into masters easily.
Sometimes I just a-move my opponents with some lings an win just because I try to do that as well. Master League/Top Diamond players (!!!)


I'll rephrase my point to make clear what I actually mean:
A good player is someone who has 200 effective apm, who does things that are needed to win due to "actually playing the game"(injecting, building stuff fast, scouting and reaction etc). You should win because you do stuff right and are phisically able to pull off strategies that only players with good mechanics (use of keyboard, mouse, information given, hotkeys etc) can do.
In Starcraft 2 good mechanics and training is not the only thing that wins you games, but also you win games with good cheeses and all ins, that abuse the fact that there is no possible way your enemy can react to this without playing cheesy himself.
For example:
If you don't build blindly an evo chamber, 6 queens and sporecrawlers in the early game you'll always lose to 2port banshee here and then, it's just bad luck.

And winning because of luck is just bad!

And again: There are so many people purely relying on the abusive things of the game and not on them actually playing good.

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