[dengar]

For MMO fans that have been around the block a bit, ArcheAge seems too good to be true. A look through some multi-gaming guilds' sites (that have some public forums) will reveal that several guilds that have been around for years are considering AA as their next home, but are avoiding forums while they wait for more information. They've been burnt before, so they're being cautious.

Biggest concern thus far? AA's mash-up at 2 genres largely seen as polar opposites. The idea of theme parks elements in a sandbox MMO does have some veterans scratching their head. One person commenting on a recent article on Massively.com (source) said:

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I know when this game launches all westerners expecting a UO revival will be seriously let down. It's not what they think it is and it never will be.
It is a faction based game at it's core, and will feature a slew of korean gaming elements that did not go over well with Lineage 1/2 or Aion. This is the person who created all of Lineage with some very minor direction of Richard Garriot after UO came out. It will be what he always wanted with Lineage but didn't have the resources or technology to do. It will be much more like Lineage than it will be like UO.

I'm really sorry, but it will feature grinds, catgirl species, korean culture and animations, an imperfect karma system, relentless opportunities for griefing, and so much more... I'd recommend westerners to play Lineage all the way through and compare it to that rather than NA sandbox games.

Harsh words, but it does have a tinge of accuracy to it, and the concerns are legitimate.

Some people currently following AA have been drawn to the game for its sandbox features and are trying to play down the theme park elements. While its certainly possible that instances may not offer the best gear around, we do have to realize that some features will have a serious impact on the game world.

The poster first comments on the game having a faction based core, and I think it is hard to argue against this. If the core were FFA with player made factions being center stage, there'd be no need for pve factions or continents. This directly ties in with the idea of a flawed "karma" system (because if anyone had developed a flawless system, there'd be little reason to attempt to make a new one ;P ). But, recall that the game does offer FFA PvP and a third side that can attack anyone or, potentially, ally with anyone (i.e. tell one side you will help them kill their enemy, and once its over, dissolve the alliance). What this means is that the hamster wheel is there for less creative players, but those of us who like to roam freely have the opportunity. If the sides are uneven, we are free to switch factions without changing class/race/paying money, and if we don't want factions, we have the open seas and our own continent to fight or ally with whoever we want (to an extent, depending on player organizations available at launch).

Which brings me to my next point: griefing. I was shocked that this player would, on the one hand, insult faction based play only to bring up the idea of griefing on the other. I feel as if NPC faction based game play inspires more griefing than FFA pvp, though I think many players see it as a preventative measure. After all, factions usually either prevent side killing or greatly discourage. That, though, is why I feel like it encourages griefers, who work the system to cause the most damage to their faction while still leaving little room for retribution. We've all had someone on our own "team" watch as we die to the enemy, or had them kill/resource steal from us, or even block our ability to progress. Rarely can you kill your faction allies, and usually if you can, there's serious consequences. This is, once again, where the FFA option pops up. If you're on an FFA server/zone, you already know what you're getting into (and if not, know now that any back stabbing that can happen probably will, but it also allows people to seem more heroic when they save you). Griefing happens, even on WoW's PvE servers, but I'd rather be able to side with my friends and have the option to enforce our own will than to be at the mercy of arbitrary game mechanics that put lamers onto my "team."

Addressing the "Korean" aspects of the game is difficult, since there's a tinge of racism hinted at here, but we can look at something else. The grind is impossible to assess before an official release, but currently sounds reasonable (a few days for lvl 25-30, assuming lvls don't go any higher than 100 and the last few lvls take a few days each to reach with about 4 hour play sessions). But let's say it takes 3 months of 4 hour sessions a day to reach the level cap. Unlike most other games, reaching the level cap means more time for pvp, sailing, selling labor, building homes/towns/communities. You know, sandbox things. All the instances in Rift won't prevent players who care about creative gameplay from doing our own thing. The game also does not seem to cater to the extremely hardcore, as seen from instances used to help train new players, no random city sieges at 4am, etc.

So, even looking at this person's concerns, ArcheAge still offers many things for sandbox players. Even should the game attract the WoW crowd, who may play the game as if there are only 2 sides and that all content worth doing is in an instance, there are a vast amount of sandbox features and areas available to the rest of us. If you join a creative guild with a reasonably active roster, sandboxers can simply set up their own content, just as we always have. The only difference is that we can play the same game as our theme-park loving friends, rather than completely shift game genres to hang out with them.

[ArcheAdmin]

Good writing, a few grammar/layout faux pas but no big deal. I like that you had the guts to call out the Massively commenter on his prejudice against Korean-made games.

I agree that people should just play how they want in MMOs and ignore how other people are playing if it annoys them. Play games to make yourself happy, not to make yourself stressed out over what other people are doing.

[Eligor]

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But, recall that the game does offer FFA PvP and a third side that can attack anyone or, potentially, ally with anyone (i.e. tell one side you will help them kill their enemy, and once its over, dissolve the alliance).

Minor correction, the game at the moment is said to have player factions, that's not just a 3rd faction but an X number of factions that the players can create. How this will work is still unknown however as it still hasn't been tested (Will be in CBT3 by the looks of it).

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Which brings me to my next point: griefing. I was shocked that this player would, on the one hand, insult faction based play only to bring up the idea of griefing on the other. I feel as if NPC faction based game play inspires more griefing than FFA pvp, though I think many players see it as a preventative measure. After all, factions usually either prevent side killing or greatly discourage. That, though, is why I feel like it encourages griefers, who work the system to cause the most damage to their faction while still leaving little room for retribution.

Again, the karma system isn't just for people who kill their own side. If you are found to hinder the advance of your own faction-mates then you can be sent to a court where you will be held accountable on your wrong-doings.

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If you join a creative guild with a reasonably active roster, sandboxers can simply set up their own content, just as we always have. The only difference is that we can play the same game as our theme-park loving friends, rather than completely shift game genres to hang out with them.

Quoted for being the best 2 lines I've read in a good while. The ability for players to shift and change the world others play in, and as such alter the server even for players who aren't interested in a sandbox game is something to actually think about. You can set up your own trading city for example, and have people who aren't interested in building or other sandbox features just come in and trade, chat or even buy a house.

[Glorion]

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You can set up your own trading city for example, and have people who aren't interested in building or other sandbox features just come in and trade, chat or even buy a house.

I honestly hope that this comes to pass

It was a hope of mine when I first played Darkfall. And then Mortal Online. I guess I'm like the rest of us and am eagerly awaiting CB3 to see what new elements have been introduced into the game itself.

My gaming community is just like those the OP mentioned. We've been burnt by a few games, hell some of us are still clutching to Mortal Online, but we've decided to get behind this one, and have begun pooling information into a wiki. True sandbox guilds dont wait till the game has all the stuff they want, THEN jump on the bandwagon. They understand that the players, as a community, contribute to the game nearly as much as the developers. Although the wait can be painful, there are some fun parts about it

[Olek]

"The next UO", after the last few games that made that claim, it's either going to scare people away, or for some, boost expectations too high.
I'm really looking forward to this game, and what some guys opinion about it in his preview isn't going to change that, I'll either enjoy it or I won't.

[Symbane]

I think you need some rails in the sandbox to get the sort of following you need to be successful enough to support the level of polish and production in a game like this.

Utlima Online was my first MMO and it holds a special place as far as games go. BUT, this is a completely different time for entertainment (much less gaming) and the reality of our current situation (as MMORPG gamers) is that Ultima Online wouldn't have half the success it's had if it had never existed and was released today (with upgrade graphics of course). There are just too many entertianment alternatives out there to expect enough reasonable gamers to stick with a game that hits them over the head and takes their lunch money the second they step into the game. I realize for many, thats a fun and exciting world....but unfortunately not a sustainable one if you wish to keep your gain running longer than a year.

I did not play Lineage 1, but Lineage 2 was a fair example of what you can do with mixing linear & sandbox play. Don't get me wrong, Lineage 2 had more than its fair share of problems....but most of them had more to do with botting & economy than game mechanics.

As for the karma system...IMO Ultima Online had one of the most fair FFA Karma systems to date. Lineage 2 has a VERY similar system, EXCEPT for one very important distinction....it ONLY had a global flagging system, where as Ultima Online had a global AND individual flagging system.

I'll explain....

Lets say we are playing in Lineage 2 and your off in some field soloing. Some other guy sees you in "their" XP spot and trys to force you out. This guy (the aggressor) attacks you unprovoked (with you in neutral standing) and recieved a global PvP flag. He is open to combat without consequence to anyone. However, if you attack him back, you ALSO flag globally....making you open to combat without consequences to anyone. This is problematic if this aggressor called in his buddies to hide around the corner while he baits you into flagging yourself open to combat. You return fire, and 5 of his friends come running around the corner to gank you. This resulted in a lot of griefing from Gold Farmers that were very territoral with leveling spots. Players with little to no support structure would refuse to flag back because they knew they were at a disadvantage....and a system meant to promote PvP ended up discouraging it.

If this same scenario happend in Ultima Online, the aggressor would have flagged globally like in Lineage 2....except the person defending himself would be free to return fire and only open himself to combat to the person that attacked him. This is where Ultima Online makes a distinction between a global & individual flag in the name of fairness. Since your combat flag is only open to the person that attacked you, and not his buddies hiding around the corner......this is more of a fair fight and prevents the "Might is Right" griefing that Eastern FFA MMOs get stereotyped with.

[Beryls]

Good article! I'm hopeing this game will pull off the prospect of bringing different markets together. A friend of mine is/was a huge L2 fan and i tried getting into it but it just want quite to my liking. Not to say i disliked everything it just didnt suit all my gaming tastes. I was and EQ1 and to lesser extent EQ2 fan and moved on to be a Vanguard fan(for the short time it lived) but likewise EQ2 and VG didn't suit my friend. So i am hoping that they can combine themepark and sandbox well. I also played DAoC and enjoyed the FvF of that since i had four roomates and we all played together. I'm interested to see how they manage the Factions and if they pull off a good combination of FvF and FFA. Honestly the only problem i personly see so far is the 1 click crafting and i hope the revisit that aspect. Vanguard had a good complex crafting system and FFXIV has an ok one as well. I also hope they add a system simalar to Mortal Online where you can choose to combine different weapon/armor parts to make a complete item, and different materials for dirrent effects.
But these are just my 2 cents!

[PsychoPigeon]

My experience of Faction based MMOs hasn't been good, I hate the fact you succeed or fail depending on how the faction performs, which is mostly made up of noob sheep who cannot think for themselves. This game has the perfect setting to be FFA.

[Beryls]

PsychoPigeon, on 11 June 2011 - 06:15 AM, said:

My experience of Faction based MMOs hasn't been good, I hate the fact you succeed or fail depending on how the faction performs, which is mostly made up of noob sheep who cannot think for themselves. This game has the perfect setting to be FFA.

I enjoyed DAoC while i played it for a short time. But i think they could manage FvF between the two continents while open seas and 3rd continent remain FFA. If the Devs look at what has worked and what has failed in the MMO market they can merge PvE and PvP as well as FvF and FFA. I think it can be done, but i know it can still fail. Also i feel from reading alot of peoples posts that 1)Players are jaded (including myself) and 2) They base their experience off of only a few games.
So when i say MMO market i mean look at all the games out there not just, UO,WoW,L2,EvE. all the Forum critiques need to expand their horizons too! IF i were a Dev i think i'd start by making a list of all the major games i could think of and make a por/con list of them, what they did right and where they failed. Hmm if im not to lazy maybe i'll start a post on that!

[Cavarath]

You can kill anyone anywhere. And noone will care about the pre made factions anyway. You can create alliances/player made factions. They will be the ones that matter.

[Beryls]

Cavarath, on 12 June 2011 - 03:23 AM, said:

You can kill anyone anywhere. And noone will care about the pre made factions anyway. You can create alliances/player made factions. They will be the ones that matter.

yes but to bring in a larger crowd this needs controlled by risk vs. reward or risk vs. repremand. My problem in both UO and MO (Mortal Online) was i couldnt get out of the starting area because there were PKers camping the starting area or just outside the starting area. I couldn't stay alive long enough to learn how to play, maybe thats a carebare attitude but i'd like to be able to figure out how to play a game before jumping right into PvP. And again im mainly a PvE player but interested in some PvP.

[PsychoPigeon]

Beryls, on 12 June 2011 - 12:50 PM, said:

yes but to bring in a larger crowd this needs controlled by risk vs. reward or risk vs. repremand. My problem in both UO and MO (Mortal Online) was i couldnt get out of the starting area because there were PKers camping the starting area or just outside the starting area. I couldn't stay alive long enough to learn how to play, maybe thats a carebare attitude but i'd like to be able to figure out how to play a game before jumping right into PvP. And again im mainly a PvE player but interested in some PvP.

They'll have pve servers

[Cavarath]

@Beryls
I dont think anyone has a problem with a "soft" start. Thats a good thing. But at end game its freedom that is important.

[Beryls]

Cavarath, on 12 June 2011 - 03:20 PM, said:

@Beryls
I dont think anyone has a problem with a "soft" start. Thats a good thing. But at end game its freedom that is important.

due to something you said i went and tried EVE. Been playing for about 8 hours now! havn't gotten to any PvP yet but if thats a PvP game to model AA after i am definatly sold! i enjoyed the begining quite a bit including the quests, its a bit tricky with so much going on, but part of that is i have a 2 year old trying to climb in my lap and press buttons at the same time.

[Izure]

Beryls, on 12 June 2011 - 09:07 PM, said:

due to something you said i went and tried EVE. Been playing for about 8 hours now! havn't gotten to any PvP yet but if thats a PvP game to model AA after i am definatly sold! i enjoyed the begining quite a bit including the quests, its a bit tricky with so much going on, but part of that is i have a 2 year old trying to climb in my lap and press buttons at the same time.

Eve is what they should learn from, it is however a early 2003 created game and still thriving.

However Eve had partial loot, risk and reward. If this game doesn't, whats the point of it being FFA or a pirate, or a outlaw, or a Anti outlaw. It adds so much pvp when these key pvp features come in, and make the game that much better. Any gamer who knows sandboxes will tell you the more sand the better. Not to mention the tactics involved of hitting enemy factions on the move, expeciailly the zergy ones, without looting rights, you take tons of tactics out and actually cater to the zerg type that can sit at a respawn point with the epic gear and respawn every 15 secs with nothing to lose, yawn boring, I rather played Battlefield or planetside, same thing but without all the grind.

Eve is a sandbox. UO is a sandbox.