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Lack of Death Penalty


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#21
Efaicia

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I'll counter your counter and submit Trion for evidence, they were adament that their game started at max lvl, therefor the game play to that point was near meaningless. I like the journey as much as, if not more than, end game and would be perfectly happy if it took at least a year to reach end game. Rift could not hold me with that theory, nor will any other game. I like depth, mystery,puzzles, adventure, epic quest lines, no minimaps and for the love of all that is holy no GD questhelper.
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Efaicia
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#22
Sarathor

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What if I cant put in a ton of time, but I put in a lot of effort?

I see myself as more semi hardcore, as in I always try to be the best, but I can no longer grind as much as other people can.
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#23
Efaicia

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then you will get there eventualy, dont ruin the game for others with demands of instant gratification.
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Efaicia
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#24
Entaro

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I disagree with Entaro that WoW turned into a gateway to let female gamers into the MMO world though, Blizzard just figured out that the easier a game the more casual people they could get to play it.


And by making the game appeal to the masses they were able to attract lots of males AND females. Not only that, but when most of the guys a girl dates (not at the same time) are playing the same game, it ends w/ her being exposed more and more to the game w/ the potential to get into it. Then she tells her friends about the cute pink unicorn mount she got and invites them over and gets them into it. And thus the girl gamer and her herd are born!

I never said that girls are crappy gamers and that they need to dumb games down for them.

#25
Veasna

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I really don't think games are dumbed down for females as much as for 13 yr old boys that want big shiney weapons tbh. The types of girls you describe will be in the mall shopping for pink shoes and not tanking in a raid.
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#26
Asphy

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I really don't think games are dumbed down for females as much as for 13 yr old boys that want big shiney weapons tbh. The types of girls you describe will be in the mall shopping for pink shoes and not tanking in a raid.


It's been that way since the beginning. Boys have always want explosions and death and blood and big shiny pewpew shit. Girls on the other hand, are a new market. The content is being retarded for both boys who wish to mindlessly zerg, and girls who want... want.... I don't know what, but they want something. Anywho, about shopping and raiding, I have to disagree. My friend has a thirteen year old sister, and she plays WoW. She has an 80+ huntard and an 80+ warrior. She also enjoys pink, prim and beauty. They aren't shooting for one type of girl, they're going for all girls.

Also, I agree with Eligor on three to four hours a day being casual. If a game, more specifically an MMO, can be "beaten", or as close as you can come in an MMO, in less than a year, something is wrong. WoW is a two to three month process for casuals, whereas Vanilla WoW took about a year to be at a self sufficient, solid, and content level. Then it took weeks / months to finish end game dungeons. Which took forty people in exact unison working together to finally defeat a main boss. If ArcheAge is anything like Vanilla WoW, I will be pleased.
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"The Party and the Krikkit warship looked, in their writhings, a little like two ducks, one of which is trying to make a third duck inside the second duck, while the second duck is trying very hard to explain that it doesn't feel ready for a third duck right now, is uncertain that it would want any putative third duck to be made by this particular first duck anyways, and certainly not while it, the second duck, was busy flying." - Douglas Adams

#27
Sarathor

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then you will get there eventualy, dont ruin the game for others with demands of instant gratification.


I didn't mean that I want instant gratification, I was just telling others how I view myself, which may or may not be how they view me. It was also asking them what category they would put me in.
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#28
Efaicia

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I didn't mean that I want instant gratification, I was just telling others how I view myself, which may or may not be how they view me. It was also asking them what category they would put me in.


I view myself as hardcore, tho to most I wont fit into that category anymore. I have a full time job in casino marketing, I am a mother to an 18 yo boy and a 9 yo girl, I'm a wife and have 2 large dogs. All of those things take priority over gaming, tho in the evenings when I am home from work and dinner is done, children are settling down and dogs are happy and calm, my hubby and I may spend 3-6 hours (if not longer, we have pulled all nighters if the game was good enough) playing whatever game we have found that interests us.

Rift could not hold our attention for more than about 8 months, at which point we were both maxed and had our end game raid gear, had cleared all but the very last raid boss in the last raid instance (due to boredom for the game overall we said fuck it and canceled) we both had respectable lvls in PvP, we got our crafting and harvesting maxed, got all the recipes there were to learn, and had near 10k plat between the both of us. All of this was attainable with no more than 3-4 hours of play an evening in 8 months. That is too easy. In those months I was able to get my main toon in all end game gear, and another toon raid rdy and clearing the first tiers of raids, and yet another toon nearly 50 with a collection of crafted gear so she could hop right into the tier 2 groups (3 toons alltogether). In no way whatsoever do I want a game so freaking simple again.

In my eyes Rift is a product of the instant gratification gamers. It is my biggest fear that once I find a game I am interested in, they will come in with demands to make things easier. Therefor ruining the challenge others enjoy so they might get their pretty shiny pixels without trying or putting forth too much effort (if any).

Every game I have started playing after I left eq2 ended up this way because of the crying masses. Hench my reason for jumping the gun when someone looks as tho they may take the, "Well, I don't have time to do anything but I want to have shinnies too and because I pay the same as them I don't think it fair they get to get cool stuff while I don't because I don't have as much time as them" attitude.

The game is about more than gear and shiny pixelated bastard swords, if you cant find entertainment in an MMO without everything being equal for the lowest common denominator player, you need to play either and FPS or a console RPG game and leave mmo's to those who enjoy them for what they are. SO very sick of seeing Devs manipulated by these schmucks.

/end rant
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Efaicia
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#29
Sarathor

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I agree, completely.

I too, only get about 3-6 hours a day now, then before. In Rift, I had played since head start, got my gear, rank 6, one of the top raiders on my server, but PvP brought me to the Guardian Side. And no, it's not what you think, lol. I had played my mage to rank 6, and during my world PvP skirmishes with the Guardian, we became friends, and I was known on the server as a good PvPer (even though I feel I'm just a tiny bit above average). Anyway, I became friends with them, and one day, one of my fellow PvP switched to the Guardian side, and I soon followed.

I played my rogue, got to 50, started gearing up, but at the end of the day, I was just bored. I decided to quit, and see how my WoW guild is doing, since I still talk to them from time to time. Now, I'm just waiting for Archeage to release while BSing around in WoW, though I'm more on minecraft than any other game. Once Skyrim comes out, I'll be played that for the most part.

Anyway, I'm looking forward to a game where it's not a WoW clone. I'm sick of themepark games, and I really want to play a good sandbox.

So, I hope to see you guys there :)
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#30
SlickMajestic

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Well someone had to get more girls into the gaming world somehow. I for one applaud the sacrifice Blizzard made to turn WoW into a gateway game to get girls into some of the more hardcore games.


WoW was just one of the gateways for not just girls, but many new gamers into the MMO market - but it was not the sole cause.

Games were becoming more and more popular each year of this past decade - and increasingly so from year to year. It wasn't until around 2006 or so when games really started picking up steam and began appealing to a more mainstream audience. Companies of course see the huge influx of players and quickly associate that with easy $$$ and a quick influx of cash. All of these new gamers play anything and everything because it's all new to them and they don't have decades of gaming experience to know that what they are playing is something that most of us veteran crowd have been playing for years already ... and are tired of. Anyway, point is that WoW was one of the gateways but by no means the only one. Games were going to go mainstream no matter what - regardless of WoW being in existence or not.

WoW was the right game at the right time. But had it never existed some other MMORPG would have filled it's spot just as easily. Games sales and game player numbers have multiplied faster in the past four years than in the past 20 years before. RPGs are now played by everyone - people who didn't even know what the term RPG meant 5 years ago. Genre's are now so mixed that everyone plays everything and now everyone knows the "game of the week" since all of the media outlets yell it from the mountain tops. Oh, and guess what? With all that being said games are worse than they've ever been. Lots more to chose from. But none which are any good. The MMORPG market has been ruined by the all of the companies want to earn a quick buck. The F2P market of garbage has completely polluted what people even think of when they use the term MMORPG. It's pretty sad.

And to anyone saying games were mainstream before 2006 or so, that's fine. But I remember back when I was in high school in the late 90's and if you were a gamer, you kept it to yourself outside of your circle as playing games was not cool. You were looked at as a loser for playing Final Fantasy(ies) and the like and heaven forbid if you had knowledge of fantasy creatures like zombies, trolls, and elves. Now? You aren't cool unless you know that stuff by heart, play video games, have dated an Elf, and lived through a zombie apocalypse in some form or the other. Complete 180 in the culture change of American youth in the past 10 years alone. That fast.

Anyway. Back to the topic at hand, no death penalty for dying basically means pointless PvP. That's all there is to really say. If you can kill each other and have no consequence for it, why not just attack someone all the time? Especially when your game isn't a faction based game like WoW, DAoC, or WAR. When you do open world games with no factions, you have to incorporate some form of risk vs. reward system - especially for PKing. You will have PKing if people can do it - regardless if there is any real value in doing it simply because people will do it for the hell of it. If you haven't learned that from playing MMOs then you haven't played the right ones. People will kill just because they can do so. And that's the only reason they need. You didn't see it in WoW or DAoC because you couldn't attack your own faction in that game. If you could, everyone would have just killed everyone because there was nothing lost from dying - even when there was nothing to be gained. Just look at how people treat other factions. Kill just to kill, even if the player is 100 levels lower than you. People like griefing in video games because it isn't real life ... and that's the cold hard fact about video games and player vs. player options.

Make rewards for PKing. Make consequences for dying if you do it. I'm all for open loot as I feel it's the best concept in existence but I understand why many developers shy away from it. But if you make a game where there isn't a consequence for killing other people without reason, it will just be a game of random mindless killing. Full loot even gave killers a reason not to die. But then penalties also made it far more risky for them *if* they died. Stat loss, XP loss, item loss. Seen it all and they all work. Faction based games made everyone adopt a 'you' vs. 'them' mentality, so naturally you had enemies and allies. Open world games with open PvP but no real risk for dying or reward for killing? I see just everyone attacking everyone ... but that's just me. And that's bad for business.
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#31
Tais

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I have done a few MMOs.. Darkfall, Ultima Online, Shadowbane, Mortal Online, Vanguard and so on.. So yeah done my fair share of pvp and what not and to me the best death system to me, was that in Shadowbane.
If you are unfamilar with Shadowbane, it would like this when you died:
- You lost all items that were NOT equipped, including gold (especially gold ;) ).
- All your equiped items took damage.
- You had a death timer (I forget how long now)

You could repair our items, but that in turn would reduce the max durability of the item and so eventually you would have to get a new one if you kept dying.

I found this did not force me into having to constantly craft items just to get back into pvp or pve and I could enjoy what I found to be more of the fun content of the game.
Having said that, I would be happy with full loot if the entire system was done properly. It worked for UO because it didn't take much to replace equipment, but it failed in MO because you had to get so many materials to just get items crafted and back into the fight.

That's my 2 cents as to why I would prefer the Shadowbane method.
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#32
Malackai

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I played my rogue, got to 50, started gearing up, but at the end of the day, I was just bored. I decided to quit, and see how my WoW guild is doing, since I still talk to them from time to time. Now, I'm just waiting for Archeage to release while BSing around in WoW, though I'm more on minecraft than any other game. Once Skyrim comes out, I'll be played that for the most part.

Anyway, I'm looking forward to a game where it's not a WoW clone. I'm sick of themepark games, and I really want to play a good sandbox.


I played rift as well it was a nice game and had interesting parts (like exploring, artifact hunting and the rift events and the fact it was possible to spec in different ways and roles.) unfortunately during my leveling I had to take a month break since I was moving. when I came back most of the guild was max level and the area I was in was deserted. an the rift events were pretty much non existent.

I decided to boot wow back up and check how things were in the guild it was around the fireland patch i think.
the only thing that is still attracting me to wow is the people in my guild and just being able to mind my own business. I still enjoy raiding with them and have a laugh.
but right now I really have my hopes set for ArcheAge and I am just waiting for it and in the mean time trying out some other mmo's.

I do like the fact your able to do whatever you want. build houses , boats, be a pirate, own forts with your guild etc or destroy other forts.
Up till now I really like what I see.
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#33
SlickMajestic

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I have done a few MMOs.. Darkfall, Ultima Online, Shadowbane, Mortal Online, Vanguard and so on.. So yeah done my fair share of pvp and what not and to me the best death system to me, was that in Shadowbane.
If you are unfamilar with Shadowbane, it would like this when you died:
- You lost all items that were NOT equipped, including gold (especially gold ;) ).
- All your equiped items took damage.
- You had a death timer (I forget how long now)



Wow. I actually forgot about Shadowbane's death system - it was quite good for an item based game. I could see something similar easily working in ArcheAge. The advantages of this system is that you can still have a game where acquiring items (be it common or rare items/weapons/armor) is still feasible because you won't lose them - assuming they are equipped.

So if you had the best crossbow in the game but also did melee (having to unequip the crossbow to go into melee) you could lose that crossbow if you died while in melee as it wouldn't be equipped. This could be interesting as it would make you think about what you equipped depending on what you were doing. If you were going to go farm mobs in PvE or do some mega world boss, you'd probably equip your awesome bow as you wouldn't be switching. However; if you were going into PvP where you would most likely need to switch between the two, you might equip lesser weapons as you'd have a chance to lose one of them. It sort of prevents people from carrying around mega items and backpacks full of potions, trinkets, etc as they'd have the chance of losing those on death.

In all honesty systems like this will work in a modern game and still attract a lot of players if it's done fairly. Full loot in games where items are ultra-hard to obtain or craft is silly as people would be enraged of losing such items. So if you itemize your game, you can't have 100% full loot or else only a small group of players will stick around as others get frustrated. Having lootable corpses (to any degree) is all dependant on how replaceable your items are. If items were meaningless, like in UO, it works for full loot. However if you want to make a game more itemized you could easily do a system like Tais mentioned above in Shadowbane.

Can't believe I forgot all about Shadowbane's loot system. Been a loooong time.
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#34
Amaterasu

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Never played Shadowbane but its death system does sound good. Hopefully they will do something similar in ArcheAge, like dropping all the craft materials in the inventory. It gives meaning to piracy (because what's the point of being a pirate if you can't plunder?), without being too harsh.

I personally would have preferred a full loot system (being an EvE player and all), but that's considered too hardcore nowadays. Most MMOs players out there will never accept to loose gear. They wouldn't be able to show it off the whole day by standing in front of the "bank" after all :D
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#35
SlickMajestic

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I personally would have preferred a full loot system (being an EvE player and all), but that's considered too hardcore nowadays. Most MMOs players out there will never accept to loose gear. They wouldn't be able to show it off the whole day by standing in front of the "bank" after all :D


I'm with you on full loot games being great but I don't quite subscribe to the philosophy that many seem to adopt about full loot games not working in today's culture. If anything, it will work because there are simply more gamers now than there were back when full loot systems did work. As long as the loot in the game is fairly easy to replace (not deep purple epics or orange legendary garbage we've seen in other games) then full loot isn't a problem. As a matter of fact I think that it would work quite well and attract players that have never given it a chance before as it would be a new experience for them, but it has to be done with a quality team and a well funded game. Darkfall was too buggy and flawed while MO was a development blunder. Darkfall was also under funded and while MO was not, they both had amateur dev crews at the helm. Add to the fact that both market themselves as PvP games -> you have to go beyond that PvE vs. PvP mindset and market the game as both. Have great PvE, because even PvP players enjoy PvE content, and as long as your game is mechanically sound and has enough balanced skills, PvP will also flourish.

If someone could do a massive world, similar to what we are seeing shape up in ArcheAge, and incorporate enjoyable PvE/Crafting, you will always attract players. The PvP comes naturally. Market it as a new world full of everything. Not just a game about PvP or PvE. And I mean market the game. Get mainstream media involved so that it gets some attention - not just the sandbox crowd who only know about it from playing other (bad) sandbox games. I might be dreaming ... but it could work.
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Nuian = Kappadonna
Warborn = Godlynn

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#36
Tais

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It's ok SlickMajestic, we can't remember them all.
One of the other points about the Shadowbane system that I failed to mention is that I believe it appeals to both casual and hardcore gamers.
I don't know about you guys, but I juggle my gaming around work, keeping fit and trying to be social... so the idea of being able to easily jump into what I consider the fun action parts of the game without having to worry about constantly re-equiping myself after dying through either;
- my own lack of skills
- a crash
- or a pvp gank squad that just roams in and kills me 10 v 1.
.. is a good thing :)

Don't forget though, you will still lose those uber items as they decay through death. So everyone can bring their best equipment to the fight instead of worrying about the above reasons.

Looking forward to swinging my katana of vanquishing at you guys.
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#37
Tyrogon

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i do agree that games are catering to much to the lazy people. there is a difference between people who are casual and people who are lazy and just want everything given to them.

death penalties are nice in some games but they arn't for every game. in the end it depends on how the game is played. based of what i have read and seen a death penalty would be hard with the labor system. i could see people spending there labor points and loosing everything they worked for because someone happened by. i know people would argue that you would pay people to defend you but if you have actually played a game with hardcore death penalties you know thats not how it is played. people just lose stuff and rage quit.

what i want to see for a death penalty is you rezzing at some place "bound" yourself at (like darkfall). you should also not be able to bind yourself in hostile lands so a person who is raiding enemy territory cant bind themselves there and keep attacking.

i dont know how many people here know about darkfall but it is a full loot game that came out a few years ago. ive played it sense launch. i do like how the full loot system gives a meaning to death. i dont like how to avoid losing much people gear up poorly and resort to zerging and other dishonorable tactics to win fights for loot. i also dont like having people be in a situation were they cant fight at all. there should be a way to remove someone from a area but i would love to see tons of people roaming the world looking for a good fight and not other people's loot.
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#38
SlickMajestic

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Looking forward to swinging my katana of vanquishing at you guys.


Haha. I'll be sure to bring out my indestructible, supremely accurate butchers knife of vanquishing to the party too! Helped me cook a lot of meat back in the day!
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Nuian = Kappadonna
Warborn = Godlynn

Looking for a good ArcheAge guild. Feel free to give me a shout!

#39
Tyrogon

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so now we know there is some things that can be lost on death what do people think?

i like where they are going with this change. everything will come down to politics. when you attack someone you are risking your clans name. if your clan runs around zerging people down and griefing people will ban against you. now that we know that you can lose some resources making a bad name for your clan could hurt you a lot. with no risk to your gear there will be no reason not to screw with someone who deserves it.

im almost excited to see all the kids who have played games with no risk start crying when the server gangs up on them because they are running around griefing.

we cant forget the propaganda. it will be like forumfall 2.0.
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#40
Prodigy

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so now we know there is some things that can be lost on death what do people think?

i like where they are going with this change. everything will come down to politics. when you attack someone you are risking your clans name. if your clan runs around zerging people down and griefing people will ban against you. now that we know that you can lose some resources making a bad name for your clan could hurt you a lot. with no risk to your gear there will be no reason not to screw with someone who deserves it.

im almost excited to see all the kids who have played games with no risk start crying when the server gangs up on them because they are running around griefing.

we cant forget the propaganda. it will be like forumfall 2.0.


I wouldn't be excited. Those "kids" have money and as we have seen with the western market, mmos will listen to the vocal minority cause they think it's the majority. WHile those kids that hate it are crying, the ones that like it are playing and then we will see the content dumbed down so those kids can win. Hopefully this doesn't happen though
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