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Lack of Death Penalty


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#161
Wiseman

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Good post Lexx , and I agree with Renik on making sure the items aren't too strong, so that it won't make others pvp farm. Believe it or not, some will still have a problem with what you have proposed...Not because it's wrong, or unbalanced...But because it's not what they "imagined". Heck...I 'd play your mmo in a sec :D .... Here's to hoping XL Games keeps those ideas rollin' in for AA...... As we can see, they've got their work cut out in putting this pretty little sand/theme together. ;)
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"We cannot solve the problems we have created with the same thinking that created them." -- Albert Einstein


#162
Asphy

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agree, but still this is the best method so far. as long as the reward sucks, good enough to have some PKs to make things fun, but not enough to have everyone farming pvp points.


Agreed. Farming PvP points is fun at first, but if it's anything like the Vanilla WoW points grind, I'll hate it 6 months in.
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"The Party and the Krikkit warship looked, in their writhings, a little like two ducks, one of which is trying to make a third duck inside the second duck, while the second duck is trying very hard to explain that it doesn't feel ready for a third duck right now, is uncertain that it would want any putative third duck to be made by this particular first duck anyways, and certainly not while it, the second duck, was busy flying." - Douglas Adams

#163
Amaterasu

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Attacker with PK ON:

  • Defender with PK OFF:
  • Same faction:
    Attacker's reward is PvP point.
    Attacker's loss is leaving blood behind (- karma)
    Defender's loss is XP and repair cost.
  • Different faction:
    Attacker's reward is PvP point.
    Defender's loss is XP and repair cost.

Sorry but that is an horrible suggestion in my opinion. Getting points/rewards from PK is one of the worse thing you can do. It just enhance the "it's red, it's dead" mentality.
You should never get rewarded for ganking. Killing the person is already enough of a reward.Otherwise, people will just brainlessly attack you without a care, simply because they win points. Griefing/farming points will become "acceptable", while it shouldn't.

Also, an XP loss means nothing in a game where you can level up fast. The decrease in equipment durability is already pretty good (since you can't really "repair" anymore with the new system). Maybe add a labour points loss instead, it is much more valuable than XP.
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#164
Asphy

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Maybe add a labour points loss instead, it is much more valuable than XP.


I like how we all say "that's an awful idea" then proceed to offer up our own terrible ideas. lol /sigh This thread is going nowhere extremely slowly.
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"The Party and the Krikkit warship looked, in their writhings, a little like two ducks, one of which is trying to make a third duck inside the second duck, while the second duck is trying very hard to explain that it doesn't feel ready for a third duck right now, is uncertain that it would want any putative third duck to be made by this particular first duck anyways, and certainly not while it, the second duck, was busy flying." - Douglas Adams

#165
Amaterasu

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I like how we all say "that's an awful idea" then proceed to offer up our own terrible ideas. lol /sigh This thread is going nowhere extremely slowly.

Except some people actually explain why it's horrible, something you fail to do yet again. These boards would be nicer without your constant sarcasms that do indeed lead nowhere.
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#166
Asphy

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Except some people actually explain why it's horrible, something you fail to do yet again. These boards would be nicer without your constant sarcasms that do indeed lead nowhere.


A little(please note little) sarcasm is what this board needs. Most people here are sooo boring. "I'm always right!" "No, I'm the one whose always right!". It really does get quite boring.

Anyways, on to perpetuating the lengthy death of this topic, Labor points are a ticking resource. So let's assume you lose the least amount of labor per one death, which is one, you would give PK'ers the ability to essentially stop the economies in certain areas. That's cool for politics and all, but would get rather annoying for the carebares. Wont happen.
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"The Party and the Krikkit warship looked, in their writhings, a little like two ducks, one of which is trying to make a third duck inside the second duck, while the second duck is trying very hard to explain that it doesn't feel ready for a third duck right now, is uncertain that it would want any putative third duck to be made by this particular first duck anyways, and certainly not while it, the second duck, was busy flying." - Douglas Adams

#167
LlexX

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Sorry but that is an horrible suggestion in my opinion. Getting points/rewards from PK is one of the worse thing you can do. It just enhance the "it's red, it's dead" mentality.
You should never get rewarded for ganking. Killing the person is already enough of a reward.Otherwise, people will just brainlessly attack you without a care, simply because they win points. Griefing/farming points will become "acceptable", while it shouldn't.

With this system there would be 2 ways to farm honor then:
  • Battlegrounds - fast honor gain
  • Open world PvP - slow honor gain
And why would people brainlessly farm honor points on the open world, if it would go much faster in BG's?

#168
Amaterasu

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Anyways, on to perpetuating the lengthy death of this topic, Labor points are a ticking resource. So let's assume you lose the least amount of labor per one death, which is one, you would give PK'ers the ability to essentially stop the economies in certain areas. That's cool for politics and all, but would get rather annoying for the carebares. Wont happen.

Why couldn't you start with a post like this instead of the previous one?

Crippling the economy is exactly why I mentioned a labour points loss. Instead of rewards that promotes directly PK, and will promote griefing, it's better to have an indirect one that gives an impact in the game.
XP loss was ok in games like L2 so you could cripple a character progression to weaken them, but in ArcheAge the progression is much faster. The progression is more centered around ressources gathering, gear, etc. In short, the economy.

Thus the ability to cripple the economy seems like a good way to go. The devs probably think the same since it's already possible to kill someone carrying ressources pack and steal it from them.
As for the "carebears", that's so 2007, but labour points definitely appears softcore compared to full loot/semi loot. Even though both can have a big impact. It's a decent penalty, without completely crippling and making unplayable a character.

With this system there would be 2 ways to farm honor then:

  • Battlegrounds - fast honor gain
  • Open world PvP - slow honor gain
And why would people brainlessly farm honor points on the open world, if it would go much faster in BG's?

During CBT4, farming honour points in battleground was actually the slowest option. That's why eventually not many people were there, but instead killing mobs on the third continent (they give honour points).
And what happened? Well you don't have mobs enough for everyone so skirmishes between factions issued. Some people took pleasure roaming in the map that belonged to their guild just to kill any ennemy that dared to use "their" spot. Sometimes leading to big scale fights.

Those fights had a reason. But adding a direct reward from killing people will ruin any logical reason. You will just fight to get the points. Not because you want to protect a spot, or because you want to weaken them, etc etc.
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#169
Wiseman

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During CBT4, farming honour points in battleground was actually the slowest option. That's why eventually not many people were there, but instead killing mobs on the third continent (they give honour points).
And what happened? Well you don't have mobs enough for everyone so skirmishes between factions issued. Some people took pleasure roaming in the map that belonged to their guild just to kill any ennemy that dared to use "their" spot. Sometimes leading to big scale fights.

Those fights had a reason. But adding a direct reward from killing people will ruin any logical reason. You will just fight to get the points. Not because you want to protect a spot, or because you want to weaken them, etc etc.


Thanks for the feedback Amaterasu.....I was wondering how the honor points affected the behavior of players in the actual game. Nothing beats the actual feedback from someone who has actually played. So that you can tell us how things are balancing out so far. I like how the lack of mobs for honor points, are making people engage in territory on the third continent. Things might have to stay that way, to make sure people are always pvp-ing there, even if they aren't involved in siege warfare. Especially if the continent is going to be as huge as it looks on the map. B) well done so far XL...
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"We cannot solve the problems we have created with the same thinking that created them." -- Albert Einstein


#170
LlexX

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During CBT4, farming honour points in battleground was actually the slowest option. That's why eventually not many people were there, but instead killing mobs on the third continent (they give honour points).
And what happened? Well you don't have mobs enough for everyone so skirmishes between factions issued. Some people took pleasure roaming in the map that belonged to their guild just to kill any ennemy that dared to use "their" spot. Sometimes leading to big scale fights.

You are right, i totally forgot about this way of earning honor points. Well its should be XL's job to balance the honor point gain from Battlegrounds, open world PvP and third continent mobs.

Crippling the economy is exactly why I mentioned a labour points loss. Instead of rewards that promotes directly PK, and will promote griefing, it's better to have an indirect one that gives an impact in the game.
XP loss was ok in games like L2 so you could cripple a character progression to weaken them, but in ArcheAge the progression is much faster. The progression is more centered around ressources gathering, gear, etc. In short, the economy.

Maybe XP loss isnt the perfect punishment, since its easy to level in AA as in a ThemePark MMO. But labor points loss and repair cost wouldnt be too much of a punishment?

#171
Narwhal

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I think they are called honor points to be more correct, and its a reward from BG's which you can use later to buy certain things like equipment, pots, food etc. There have been a discussion already about these points somewhere on the forums.

Battlegrounds reward system. Are they forcing me to play with gear incentive?


I thought I read somewhere that BG's would only reward cosmetic items only usable within the BG's themselves. So now they are rewarding PvP specific gear? I really hate that idea. I hope it doesn't stick. Anything that takes people out of the open world is bad for AA imo.
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#172
Asphy

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That's why eventually not many people were there, but instead killing mobs on the third continent (they give honour points).And what happened? Well you don't have mobs enough for everyone so skirmishes between factions issued. Some people took pleasure roaming in the map that belonged to their guild just to kill any ennemy that dared to use "their" spot. Sometimes leading to big scale fights.Those fights had a reason. But adding a direct reward from killing people will ruin any logical reason. You will just fight to get the points. Not because you want to protect a spot, or because you want to weaken them, etc etc.

1. Mobs with honor points is pretty awesome, I must admit.
2. I agree with no direct rewards from PvP. I would like non-essential aesthetic rewards though.

Thanks for the feedback Amaterasu.....I was wondering how the honor points affected the behavior of players in the actual game. Nothing beats the actual feedback from someone who has actually played.


Indeed. Even I can't talk shit after that.

But labor points loss and repair cost wouldnt be too much of a punishment?


Maybe not. What about a system of retarding labor point ticking?
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"The Party and the Krikkit warship looked, in their writhings, a little like two ducks, one of which is trying to make a third duck inside the second duck, while the second duck is trying very hard to explain that it doesn't feel ready for a third duck right now, is uncertain that it would want any putative third duck to be made by this particular first duck anyways, and certainly not while it, the second duck, was busy flying." - Douglas Adams

#173
Amaterasu

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Maybe XP loss isnt the perfect punishment, since its easy to level in AA as in a ThemePark MMO. But labor points loss and repair cost wouldnt be too much of a punishment?

Maybe, we only had like 2 weeks to test the new durability system before the beta ended, so it's hard to tell if that's already enough of a penalty. I saw on some reports that several players considered the durability loss to be "hardcore"(lol!), XLgames also mentioned more testing need to be done about it.
To me it did feel like a reasonable penalty at that point. But i'm afraid it doesn't scale well with higher levels and with people who have played for several months/years.

One thing to remember about the durability loss is that when your equipment ends up ruining out of durability, you don't completely lose it. You can still fuse it with a "normal" piece of gear to keep the bonus stat. This "normal" gear is pretty cheap to make because it doesn't require akium, so I don't think players will really care much about it when they have a lot of material stacked in bank after playing for months/years.

Labour points on the other side will scale regardless of that. No clue if it's the best option, it's just a personal idea. There's probably other ways to give impact to PK and make it meaningful.

I thought I read somewhere that BG's would only reward cosmetic items only usable within the BG's themselves. So now they are rewarding PvP specific gear? I really hate that idea. I hope it doesn't stick. Anything that takes people out of the open world is bad for AA imo.

You get some gear, and special mount/glider/ship blueprint. However it's nothing game breaking that would make BGs something mandatory. And like I said, you get honour points faster from killing mobs on the third continent (there's also some quests to get points). During the last month of beta, the BG was actually pretty empty. I tried queuing up for it and could never get in due to lack of players.

I remember posting a screenshot comparing honour points weapons and crafted one, somewhere on this forum...can't find it anymore :(. But anyway, HP weapons don't have the best stats, but they all have a special ability (root, stun, snare...). However they can't be repaired...I think the best item you can buy with honour points is definitely the mount.
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#174
Wiseman

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I remember posting a screenshot comparing honour points weapons and crafted one, somewhere on this forum...can't find it anymore :(. But anyway, HP weapons don't have the best stats, but they all have a special ability (root, stun, snare...). However they can't be repaired...I think the best item you can buy with honour points is definitely the mount.


I think this is the link you are reffering to....: Honor Point REWARDS

I am addicted to collecting SOURCE material ;) ........

Or maybe I pulled this from somewhere else..Screenshot comparison u say?..Where did I get this?..Well it came from somebody's post about honor points :blink::lol:
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"We cannot solve the problems we have created with the same thinking that created them." -- Albert Einstein


#175
Amaterasu

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I think this is the link you are reffering to....: Honor Point REWARDS

Nah it was an edited screenshot with the stats of a dagger from the honour point vendor next to the stats of the highest tier of crafted dagger at that time. I even remember making it especially for cavarath!(lol). Did a quick search on my posts, but I can't be bothered looking at them one by one.
But anyway, the stats of the crafted weapons were higher by a large margin.

That link shows each of the weapons you can get with honour points though, as well as their special ability (and the mount/ship and tank blueprint/glider, etc..). If the demand is high, I can translatezz.
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#176
Eligor

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If i remember correctly, I read somewhere that the pvp/honor items are not meant to be over the top. They are just there as a substitute to medium grade items in case the player wants to spend ages pvping.
Let's all pretend there's something really important written here...

#177
Cavarath

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@Asphy
Ok partial inventory loot could work. No problem with that. As long as a PK has increased dropping, like one equiped item.

@LexX
No, just no. As Amaterasu said already, terrible idea. Its just the worst thing you can do to a sandbox. NEVER and i mean NEVER directly reward killing people. Its already bad enough that there are Battlegrounds that reward you. No need to make the situation worse.
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"Recent results of scientific research have shown that the wish of a person to get a ArcheAge beta key is the bigger the lower the post count." - Veryintelligent Person

#178
LlexX

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No, just no. As Amaterasu said already, terrible idea. Its just the worst thing you can do to a sandbox. NEVER and i mean NEVER directly reward killing people. Its already bad enough that there are Battlegrounds that reward you. No need to make the situation worse.

If you two check it better, this system wouldnt reward the PK'ers directly (except honor points), instead it would reward the players who are protecting the weak ones against the PK'ers.. And with this system the PK'ers would need to think before doing their random killings, and keep in mind the consequences of their actions.

#179
Cavarath

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I checked very carefully. I dont see a difference between a farming PK and a farming not PK. Sorry.
You system would destroy anything. It would destroy politics and economy. Sorry but this direct reward themepark bullshit has not place in a game like ArcheAge.
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"Recent results of scientific research have shown that the wish of a person to get a ArcheAge beta key is the bigger the lower the post count." - Veryintelligent Person

#180
Asphy

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themepark bullshit has not place in a game like ArcheAge.


Even though ArcheAge is half theme park.
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"The Party and the Krikkit warship looked, in their writhings, a little like two ducks, one of which is trying to make a third duck inside the second duck, while the second duck is trying very hard to explain that it doesn't feel ready for a third duck right now, is uncertain that it would want any putative third duck to be made by this particular first duck anyways, and certainly not while it, the second duck, was busy flying." - Douglas Adams




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