[dengar]

There are some topics on various forums commenting on CB3 and the pvp system currently in place. Most of the threads are concerned with the fact that pvp currently has large risks but little rewards. People are asking for complete overhauls, looking for increased punishment or increased rewards, but perhaps most of these people are missing a few things.

As the title of the first link notes, the system in place mainly addresses what I'll call the "WoW continents", since, much like Kalimodor and the Eastern Kingdoms, they are controlled by NPC factions. Despite the title, people are forgetting that the punishments in place for the jail system address same-faction slaying for the dominant faction. Using WoW terms, this is when orcs kill orcs at Crossroads, not orcs killing humans, humans killing orcs, or humans killing humans. The jail system is in place to keep the controlling faction "safe" from traitors. The reward should be little to nothing, unless you want to join the pirate faction (which, from my understanding, same-faction killing is the way to go). This issue constantly comes up in other PvP games, and it's my assumption that those complaining the loudest about this have either forgotten about factions, that these rules are applied to the "WoW continents," or that they apply to same-faction killing. Most of this, to me, implies that the people posting this are used to hardcore pvp sandbox games, which may actually hinder their perspective.

Sandbox games tend to be run by indie companies, and are niche games, which is probably why sandboxers are looking at ArcheAge more than, say, the WoW crowd. However, the sandbox crowd needs to remember that AA is aiming for the WoWheads as well. This is not supposed to be the new Ultima Online, Darktide, Darkfall, EVE, etc. AA is a compromise between the two genres. If you cannot get that into your head, you are in for a lot of disappointment. If pvp's death penalties are brutal, then the WoWheads won't play; it's that simple. This isn't EVE where we'll all be on one server, and servers that have fastly different rule sets aren't common. As much as I love looting Axe of Awesomeness from my opponents, I've come to peace with the idea that it probably won't happen in AA.

Finally, recognize that the pvp discussed so far is not end game and not in the designated pvp continent. Nub pvp rarely matters. The risk vs. reward is probably more tuned for the WoWheads since it gets them hooked to AA early on before giving them the chance to get at the hard stuff. Since we have someone from Lineage leading this, I'm going to guess that the risk vs. reward is better tuned for the pvp continent: better mobs, better resource access, few spawn points, etc. No, we probably won't have full item drops or xp loss since the game is trying to cater to those theme-park players as well, but from my understanding, they won't have jail to police for them, and few npc towns to hide out in (from what I recall reading, there's one or two outposts on the outskirts to help people get their feet wet).

Sandboxers are going to be at the mercy of the theme-parkers, but this will work both ways. The "WoW continents," due to safety, will probably be more crowded with houses, and may have less options (I can't see castles being possible since sieges are supposed to be only on the pvp continent). Theme-parkers will have to play against sandboxers for their castles, and... well, WoW's arenas aren't real pvp, so theme-parkers probably are at a disadvantage when it comes to things like alliances, maintaining server image (since theme-parks have gotten fairly instanced and personal/guild reputation is largely judged on raid progress rather than social skills and alliance clout), meta-gaming, etc. The advantage of the AA model is that it lures a larger pool of players to a game that offers sandbox play, allowing those of us with softcore friends to finally have a game where we can play with our friends without being stuck with "raid grinding" as our content.

[Izure]

dengar, on 01 June 2011 - 10:58 AM, said:

There are some topics on various forums commenting on CB3 and the pvp system currently in place. Most of the threads are concerned with the fact that pvp currently has large risks but little rewards. People are asking for complete overhauls, looking for increased punishment or increased rewards, but perhaps most of these people are missing a few things.

As the title of the first link notes, the system in place mainly addresses what I'll call the "WoW continents", since, much like Kalimodor and the Eastern Kingdoms, they are controlled by NPC factions. Despite the title, people are forgetting that the punishments in place for the jail system address same-faction slaying for the dominant faction. Using WoW terms, this is when orcs kill orcs at Crossroads, not orcs killing humans, humans killing orcs, or humans killing humans. The jail system is in place to keep the controlling faction "safe" from traitors. The reward should be little to nothing, unless you want to join the pirate faction (which, from my understanding, same-faction killing is the way to go). This issue constantly comes up in other PvP games, and it's my assumption that those complaining the loudest about this have either forgotten about factions, that these rules are applied to the "WoW continents," or that they apply to same-faction killing. Most of this, to me, implies that the people posting this are used to hardcore pvp sandbox games, which may actually hinder their perspective.

Sandbox games tend to be run by indie companies, and are niche games, which is probably why sandboxers are looking at ArcheAge more than, say, the WoW crowd. However, the sandbox crowd needs to remember that AA is aiming for the WoWheads as well. This is not supposed to be the new Ultima Online, Darktide, Darkfall, EVE, etc. AA is a compromise between the two genres. If you cannot get that into your head, you are in for a lot of disappointment. If pvp's death penalties are brutal, then the WoWheads won't play; it's that simple. This isn't EVE where we'll all be on one server, and servers that have fastly different rule sets aren't common. As much as I love looting Axe of Awesomeness from my opponents, I've come to peace with the idea that it probably won't happen in AA.

Finally, recognize that the pvp discussed so far is not end game and not in the designated pvp continent. Nub pvp rarely matters. The risk vs. reward is probably more tuned for the WoWheads since it gets them hooked to AA early on before giving them the chance to get at the hard stuff. Since we have someone from Lineage leading this, I'm going to guess that the risk vs. reward is better tuned for the pvp continent: better mobs, better resource access, few spawn points, etc. No, we probably won't have full item drops or xp loss since the game is trying to cater to those theme-park players as well, but from my understanding, they won't have jail to police for them, and few npc towns to hide out in (from what I recall reading, there's one or two outposts on the outskirts to help people get their feet wet).

Sandboxers are going to be at the mercy of the theme-parkers, but this will work both ways. The "WoW continents," due to safety, will probably be more crowded with houses, and may have less options (I can't see castles being possible since sieges are supposed to be only on the pvp continent). Theme-parkers will have to play against sandboxers for their castles, and... well, WoW's arenas aren't real pvp, so theme-parkers probably are at a disadvantage when it comes to things like alliances, maintaining server image (since theme-parks have gotten fairly instanced and personal/guild reputation is largely judged on raid progress rather than social skills and alliance clout), meta-gaming, etc. The advantage of the AA model is that it lures a larger pool of players to a game that offers sandbox play, allowing those of us with softcore friends to finally have a game where we can play with our friends without being stuck with "raid grinding" as our content.

If they are trying to make a carebear sandbox game which has meaningless pvp as endgame, then it is already going to fail, you can't cater to two different crowds, thus why they are two crowds. You can make the last Island of the game, the endgame hardcore pvp island, and the rest could be for the wowheads or whatever. And add to both with different unique features down the road. I believe AION tried something similar(without some of the sandbox features) and it failed. You can't have a softcore sandbox(wannabe really) game with PVP endgame without people getting bored and losing subs fast. There has to be a point of PVP, not just G v G, F v F. If they are going for that then theres already better games for that, GW2, WOW, AION,. And also better games for the hardcore aspects, EVE.

Tell me something, what is the point of killing someone if theres no point for killing them, no reward, no loss. Am I the only one who see's this game falling flat on its face with these rules? No loot(partial or full or with insurance) will eventually bore population. I know what the devs are trying to do, I am just stating my opinion on the matter and why I think it will fail trying to make a PVP game for carebears.

[moneda]

Izure, on 02 August 2011 - 10:29 AM, said:

Tell me something, what is the point of killing someone if theres no point for killing them, no reward, no loss.

The point is that they will die and I will not. If you need more incentive than that in order to PvP then I'm glad I won't be depending on your worthless ass in a fight.

[Shark]

Then why don't you play some sort of full RvR game? That's the place for no brain PvP. Or maybe the battleground is for you? no impact whatsoever, just randomers hitting each other for the sake of hitting something. You'll enjoy it for sure.

[Zil]

I don't need much reason to kill either, I'll hunt down a player if he's at my spot or killed a friend, otherwise I'll leave him alone if I don't feel like wasting time, rewards are a bonus.

There's been a lot of discussion surrounding this subject, I think we ought to wait and see what ArcheAge cooks up for us, I could understand why they made PvP in the CB <brainless>, obviously it was to test other aspects of the game.

[Shinaji]

Open World Guild Objectives could work.
Capture this shrine here and your guild gets raised drop rate/exp rate and/or everyone levelling in that area has a small fraction of their coin/exp taxed to the guild holding the shrine in the area.
Shrine becomes attackable after 1 hour of being captured by a guild, or simply open for attack all the time.
rough ideas off the top of my head.
Just some open world reason to fight instead of kill people get points.

[Shark]

Zil, on 05 August 2011 - 12:53 PM, said:

I don't need much reason to kill either, I'll hunt down a player if he's at my spot or killed a friend, otherwise I'll leave him alone if I don't feel like wasting time, rewards are a bonus.

Yea and thats exactly what we're talking about. Obviously you would fight for a spot, not because you randomly want to fight someone; being allowed to keep your spot is the reward for the risk you've taken... I mean wtf do you mean no reward? No reward means no spot keeping, no castle siege and no possibility to own one, no partial loot, nothing. We all fight for something no matter how hypocrital some people might be.

There must be something to motivate PvP, a reason to fight, otherwise its just stupid and brainless. And making your opponent lose something is as much a part of your reward as well as a guarantee that they won't come back and that you've won for good. Maybe "reward" is not the appropriate term, but there is definitely a sense of reward in a good PvP mmo.

[Zil]

Shark, on 05 August 2011 - 01:56 PM, said:

Yea and thats exactly what we're talking about. Obviously you would fight for a spot, not because you randomly want to fight someone; being allowed to keep your spot is the reward for the risk you've taken... I mean wtf do you mean no reward? No reward means no spot keeping, no castle siege and no possibility to own one, no partial loot, nothing. We all fight for something no matter how hypocrital some people might be.

There must be something to motivate PvP, a reason to fight, otherwise its just stupid and brainless. And making your opponent lose something is as much a part of your reward as well as a guarantee that they won't come back and that you've won for good. Maybe "reward" is not the appropriate term, but there is definitely a sense of reward in a good PvP mmo.

That is an implicit reward, it comes naturally at least in a sense. I was talking about compensation implemented artificially by the Dev. Such as the infamous honor points that allow you to buy gear or corpse looting.

Obviously they could also ruin killing kser's if they let you instant-revive, but the base mechanic's that is PvP must enforce a set of rules. And these rules bring rewards.

[Eligor]

Archeage's main continents are locked in a war, so that's basically your "Incentive" to fight someone from the Harriharan Alliance, if you're part of the Nuian one and vice-versa. There will probably be rewards in killing someone from the opposing faction but nothing game breaking. I would guess you gain some sort of "fame" points for your faction which you can use to advance your position within the said faction. Recall the developers mentioning that you can progress your faction rank. There hasn't been a word on PvP gear but with some luck we won't see any of that in Archeage since it just means people with PvP gear will rule the rest of the players.

Moreover you can PK your own faction, which I bet some grievers will do. So mounting a crusade with your friends to bring down the grievers is another activity which will lead to PvP. Alternatively you will have battleground, by the looks of it, raiding (And not I don't mean the WoW kind of raids).

What else... Well, in the end if you want to PvP then the game offers countless possibilities for you to do so, if not... then you are free not to. The "PvP Continent" isn't exactly a continent, it's an island and it's smaller than the main continents. This is where they will funnel the PvPers, who belong in guilds and mercenaries, in the end. You can only go there if you have hit the level cap and it is where you can expect the most brutal fights to take place. It's no longer just 1 faction against another like the main continents (although you aren't barred for participating in that, by all means). This is a free-for-all fight between guilds for control, prestige, resources and just having fun and sating your bloodlust. You build your castle, you defend it, you attract people to make their homes there and whatnot.

[Synner]

moneda, on 05 August 2011 - 08:34 AM, said:

The point is that they will die and I will not. If you need more incentive than that in order to PvP then I'm glad I won't be depending on your worthless ass in a fight.

sounds like someone needs a nap... a wee bit cranky, mate?

i PvP cause its fun. theres no reason... no hidden meaning... its fun to fight another player. thats about all there is to it. dont care for rewards or risks.

[Zdzisiu]

I realy would like some more accurate information about PvP and goals in this game.
Right now it sounds like fraction vs fraction (like in WoW) game with one pointless small island created for separate PvP players...

"A compromise between the two genres" - does not sounds nice...

[Eligor]

Zdzisiu, on 10 August 2011 - 07:17 AM, said:

I realy would like some more accurate information about PvP and goals in this game.
Right now it sounds like fraction vs fraction (like in WoW) game with one pointless small island created for separate PvP players...

"A compromise between the two genres" - does not sounds nice...

I wouldn't exactly use the words "pointless" and "small"...


That's far from small if you ask me. This island isn't just there to seperate PvP players. The game is a RvR game at it's core, with 2 main factions the players join but there's also the political aspect. The 3rd island is mainly where the guild metagame will take place, an area rich with resources people need and stuff like that. Guilds move in and try to take their little piece of this island. Alliances form to defend eachother from other guilds either looking to settle in or expand their territory.

[Gimfain]

The map looks good. I really like the idea of a large PvP-area, and hope it can create high-level PvP hotspots.

[Eligor]

No need for hotspots, the PvP island is only for the people who have reached the level cap, unless it get's changed along the way. It's one way to keep things even-ish, no lowbies to get ganked and such... also working with your guild there would be the best idea as I'm guessing we will be seeing a lot of guilds sending out "hunting" parties to find and kill roaming members of enemy guilds. Overall~ crazy amounts of fun!

[Zil]

Although their are two factions you can still attack your own and become a Pirate by getting hate from your faction right?

It'd be sick if you could get friendly with the opposing faction and switch, get a traitor status. That would make starter races from the opposing faction actually enabled to join the other side.

[Eligor]

Not entirely sure how Pirate faction works but yes, you can still attack your own faction but it will mean that you will be branded a Player Killer and called to court. Fail to arrive means you will have players acting as bounty hunters coming after you.

There is an option to change from one faction to the other as the developers have said but they haven't really specified. Also not all races seem to be able to just jump ship.

[Zil]

Eligor, on 10 August 2011 - 08:56 PM, said:

Not entirely sure how Pirate faction works but yes, you can still attack your own faction but it will mean that you will be branded a Player Killer and called to court. Fail to arrive means you will have players acting as bounty hunters coming after you.

There is an option to change from one faction to the other as the developers have said but they haven't really specified. Also not all races seem to be able to just jump ship.

That just might be the extra difficulty some people might be searching by becoming wanted. As for the faction change, well I guess it also depends on the lore, I guess some race's just can't get a long with each other. Maybe allowing a partial switch with certain races, that's if you can separably befriend each of them.

[Eligor]

I would think that becoming an outlaw is the first step in entering the pirate faction. Trying to avoid other players because they will most probably attack you will also mean that you will probably attack them first if you have a chance, hence the start of going pirate.

[Zdzisiu]

Eligor, on 10 August 2011 - 04:56 PM, said:

No need for hotspots, the PvP island is only for the people who have reached the level cap,

So... that is exactly as I told - just for separate PvP. Gank, fight for spots, RB etc. is part of PvP and wars between clans.

[Zil]

Eligor, on 11 August 2011 - 08:57 PM, said:

I would think that becoming an outlaw is the first step in entering the pirate faction. Trying to avoid other players because they will most probably attack you will also mean that you will probably attack them first if you have a chance, hence the start of going pirate.

Sounds awesome, I could see why they don't want a killer death penalty, you'd get stripped from your gear before you know it. Unless they give pirates advantages on the sea so that they can actually live there.