[ArcheAdmin]

I stumbled across another great ArcheAge-related article on ThisIsGame.com and decided to fix it up and repost it here while I had some free time between University classes.

Quote

This is one of the keynote speeches from Korea Games Conference 2009. KGC 2009 was held at COEX in Seoul from October 7 to 9. Top executives from Ndoors, NHN, AMD, Crytek and more shared their knowledge of Korea's online gaming ecosystem.

Among the keynote speakers was Jake Song, founder of XL Games, who discussed the evolving world of MMORPGs.

Jake is a legendary developer behind blockbuster games likes of Kingdom of the Wind and Lineage, whose accumulated revenue exceeded 1 trillion Won (US$ 769 million). He’s currently working on a new MMORPG called X2 (working title) at XL Games. [This article was released before ArcheAge was officially named.]

The following is a summary of what Mr. Song said during his keynote speech.

The Evolving World of MMORPGs
Jake Song took WoW as an example of current trends in the MMORPG world: quite predictable and tame like Hollywood movies. In order to overcome this limitation, developers have to take their target audience's participation and creativity into account.

90s MMOPRGs: Virtual worlds with lots of freedom
First of all, I want to start with saying that this is my personal opinion, which can be sometimes right and sometimes dead wrong.

The 1st generation of MMORPGs includes Ultima Online and Lineage in 1997. EverQuest, Lineage 2 and Dark Age of Carmelot can be categorized as the 2nd generation. Now we have World of Warcraft and Aion.

Ultima Online paved the way for modern MMORPGs by introducing the make-believe virtual world with a liberal dose of freedom, which produced reckless PK and autoprograms (bots) as byproducts.

Lineage also created a series of problems: reckless PK, monopolization of hunting grounds by few clans, secondary markets outside of the game (RMT), etc.

It was all about trial and error for the 1st generation games.

2nd Gen Games: A hands-on approach to solving problems
That’s when the 2nd generation games, EverQuest, Lineage 2, and Dark Age of Camelot, came in. EverQuest, the first 3D MMORPG, introduced the raid system where multiple users hunt monsters together, along with non-tradable items. Dark Age of Camelot employed an RVR system which expanded upon FFA PVP.

Then along came blockbuster games like World of Warcraft and Aion, which solved a lot of remaining problems but also introduced some of their own.

In the case of WoW, they took entertainment aspect of the game more seriously than virtualization. Non-tradable items kept users from creating a secondary market and no in-clan PVP rule reduced reckless PK. Introducing an instanced dungeon solved the problem of players monopolizing hunting grounds.

Emphasizing the entertainment aspect brought out good things from games but it also has a side effect: entertainment and convenience made players overlook unrealistic situations. For example, a boss monster that you killed several hours ago respawns. That makes no sense!

Instanced dungeons were like riding attractions at theme park with your friends. You ride one and move on to another.

Bring Out Freedom Again
As instanced dungeons became popular, the whole world of MMORPGs became an entrance lobby to instanced dungeons. In my opinion, today’s MMORPGs are like theme parks – guaranteed fun with limited choices.

Players became passive consumers. Rather than actively seeking contents like the 1st generation games, they just follow the game developer’s lead. They can’t build a castle or house within this confined world, hence the predictable and tame modern virtual world.

Future MMORPG
I believe the next generation of MMORPGs will return to the previous trends: freedom and creativity. You can get that old predictable fun from other entertainment forms.

This will be possible by integrating the world, lore, community, and user-created contents. For example, the world can be changed according to season, time of the day, weather and so on. You can cut down trees to build a house or a castle.

Let’s say a pond can be created when a meteor strike was called down during a battle last week. Or you can hire or date an NPC, who normally just sells items or offers a quest in today’s games.

Unpredictable fun should be implemented in MMORPGs. We need to work on addressing problems rather than putting a band-aid on them. On top of its sophistication, the future MMORPG incorporates a way to give users back the possibility of freedom and creativity.

[Power Incarnate]

This is why i love Song. He pulls the words right out of my mouth. Im often arguing the same points in other threads and forums about the state of MMO's atm, but more so in the western market. I pretty much agree with 90% of what he said and 100% Of the future MMORPG.

[Romtim]

ummm
http://community.arc...__p__85#entry85
read closely, there is a link in the first part:
Jake song interview My vision of mmorpg.
click it - and you have your article. duh

[ArcheAdmin]

Yup, but I fixed it up and made it more easily understandable. TIG does good translations, but they still need some help. :)

[Ballista]

I don't know.. he talks about how second generation MMOs reduced reckless PK'ing then says future MMOs will return to sandbox-type MMOs without explaining how he thinks they'll reduce that.

The whole reason sandbox-MMOs weren't as successful as later generation games was exactly that - people didn't have to deal with the griefing by other people.

As much as I love pvp, I only like it when it's consensual and I don't see a game like this being as popular as current generation games, even with the improved graphics and instanced physics.

[Power Incarnate]

Ballista, on 28 July 2010 - 12:47 PM, said:

I don't know.. he talks about how second generation MMOs reduced reckless PK'ing then says future MMOs will return to sandbox-type MMOs without explaining how he thinks they'll reduce that.

The whole reason sandbox-MMOs weren't as successful as later generation games was exactly that - people didn't have to deal with the griefing by other people.

As much as I love pvp, I only like it when it's consensual and I don't see a game like this being as popular as current generation games, even with the improved graphics and instanced physics.

Thats an inaccurate assumption tho. Consensual PvP is nice...but completely unrealistic as a lone means of combat. Also when i say this, understand that im not talking in support of griefing, which most casual players seem to automatically associate with OWPVP. If we are in warred guilds, and you get ganked unexpectedly, thats far more realistic than walking up to you /request duel /no thanks *runs off in other direction*. The consent is implied by realizing you are in warred factions (If the case be)

(Side note: Realizing this logically is also another way to see a large flaw in the logic of many casual players, who tend to lean more toward officially "Faction" based games...then complaining profusely when they are killed repeatedly by the opposite side...you know...of the war they chose to take part in?).

You improve your skill of play to be more aware, and not be thrown completely off guard. At that point the system evolves into another level of reality, and more purely represents the nature of combat during war being unexpected. The same applies for battlegrounds. Does that mean that these 2 features should not be in game? No not at all. But they should not be the governing factors for what they represent. Its about checks and balances and the responsibility rests heavily on the creators in this regard. Decent overall death penalty, Heavy penalty for Outlaw/PK status when its passed certain point, decent reward for killing Outlaw/PK etc. There by establishing Incentive to hunt Pk's and incentive to not PK. L2 did this best imo. People who complain about how impossible it was to level because of griefing, are less than the type of player i feel should be the demographic for a REALISTIC MMO anyways. And here again, this is not based off of whether or not you believe the game was good, or even if you liked it; but the perceived difficulty of your own state of being.

Alot of the new MMOs stunted the free form direction games in general were heading in, to a far simpler, safer, easier mode of play...which does not always equal more fun, or more interesting, and certainly not more challenging. I mean, ive had to listen to people complain about exp loss on death in Aion...the exp that you can buy back?!?!? Fuck the price... think about the logic of the statement...Does anyone else remember how that feature was, and is still, non existent in most games?(Here again i am not saying that Aion was or is, though i think it will eventually be, a good game.) Not to say that old ideas are the best, or that this was a good or bad one, for it is certainly not fact, but i mention it as a reference to the weak minded state of play most western market gamers are degrading into.

[ArcheAdmin]

That post deserves a reputation point.

[Power Incarnate]

Admin, on 28 July 2010 - 02:16 PM, said:

That post deserves a reputation point.

^_~ tyyyyyyyyyyy! Right back at you big guy! Lol

[Nyisia]

Admin, on 28 July 2010 - 02:16 PM, said:

That post deserves a reputation point.

I agree!! Said everything I've been saying this whole time. I love the "difficulty" in L2, but the graphics in Aion. I love the lore of Aion, but it's an EASY ride to level cap. I've honestly never played WoW and don't ever intend to. I can't get past the 4th grader drawn graphics, but that's just me. I want a "pretty" game that is challenging and doesn't take 2 months to reach lvl cap with nothing to do once you get there. Give me a game that it takes 6-12 months to reach level cap or one that doesn't have a level cap! I love the sense of accomplishment I used to get from L2 when I'd reach the next "grade". I'm hoping that if/when AA reaches NA that it isn't dumbed down for all the cry babies.

[Power Incarnate]

Nyisia, on 28 July 2010 - 06:50 PM, said:

I agree!! Said everything I've been saying this whole time. I love the "difficulty" in L2, but the graphics in Aion. I love the lore of Aion, but it's an EASY ride to level cap. I've honestly never played WoW and don't ever intend to. I can't get past the 4th grader drawn graphics, but that's just me. I want a "pretty" game that is challenging and doesn't take 2 months to reach lvl cap with nothing to do once you get there. Give me a game that it takes 6-12 months to reach level cap or one that doesn't have a level cap! I love the sense of accomplishment I used to get from L2 when I'd reach the next "grade". I'm hoping that if/when AA reaches NA that it isn't dumbed down for all the cry babies.

Tyty and GO GURL!!!!!!! lol ^_^ I agree with ya all the way. +1

[Ballista]

Power Incarnate, on 28 July 2010 - 02:10 PM, said:

Thats an inaccurate assumption tho. Consensual PvP is nice...but completely unrealistic as a lone means of combat. Also when i say this, understand that im not talking in support of griefing, which most casual players seem to automatically associate with OWPVP. If we are in warred guilds, and you get ganked unexpectedly, thats far more realistic than walking up to you /request duel /no thanks *runs off in other direction*. The consent is implied by realizing you are in warred factions (If the case be)

(Side note: Realizing this logically is also another way to see a large flaw in the logic of many casual players, who tend to lean more toward officially "Faction" based games...then complaining profusely when they are killed repeatedly by the opposite side...you know...of the war they chose to take part in?).

You improve your skill of play to be more aware, and not be thrown completely off guard. At that point the system evolves into another level of reality, and more purely represents the nature of combat during war being unexpected. The same applies for battlegrounds. Does that mean that these 2 features should not be in game? No not at all. But they should not be the governing factors for what they represent. Its about checks and balances and the responsibility rests heavily on the creators in this regard. Decent overall death penalty, Heavy penalty for Outlaw/PK status when its passed certain point, decent reward for killing Outlaw/PK etc. There by establishing Incentive to hunt Pk's and incentive to not PK. L2 did this best imo. People who complain about how impossible it was to level because of griefing, are less than the type of player i feel should be the demographic for a REALISTIC MMO anyways. And here again, this is not based off of whether or not you believe the game was good, or even if you liked it; but the perceived difficulty of your own state of being.

Alot of the new MMOs stunted the free form direction games in general were heading in, to a far simpler, safer, easier mode of play...which does not always equal more fun, or more interesting, and certainly not more challenging. I mean, ive had to listen to people complain about exp loss on death in Aion...the exp that you can buy back?!?!? Fuck the price... think about the logic of the statement...Does anyone else remember how that feature was, and is still, non existent in most games? Not to say that old ideas are the best, or that this was a good or bad one, for it is certainly not fact, but i mention it as a reference to the weak minded state of play most western market gamers are degrading into.

I played Ultima Online in 1997 for many years (it was my first MMO.. because it was the first mainstream MMO here in USA) and dabbled in Lineage II. I also played PvP servers on Matrix Online.

Free For All/Open World PvP in these games always turned to uncontrolled/unchecked griefing (based mostly on my experience from UO, MxO and Aion's rift system) because penalties are never severe enough to limit the PK population (although from what I saw they were a bit more severe in Lineage II). For example in UO PK's roamed everywhere because death was meaningless, they could res, and macro back skills in a heartbeat and had alts to re-gear. There was no real penalty for PK'ing beyond having to log on an alt and res yourself at your house. Not to mention working off PK kills was as easy as parking your character in your house and going AFK while you went to work or something.

But anyways, that's my feeling on the matter. If penalties aren't high enough to ensure there are significant limits on PK'ing I'd rather play a next-gen MMO that offers me more consensual means of dividing my time, like TERA. I don't mind dying when I'm not trying to pvp if I know that the player actually truly RISKED something to kill me.

[ArcheAdmin]

There wasn't any real penalties for PK in Aion because it was faction-based. :3

[Power Incarnate]

Ballista, on 29 July 2010 - 02:00 AM, said:

I played Ultima Online in 1997 for many years (it was my first MMO.. because it was the first mainstream MMO here in USA) and dabbled in Lineage II. I also played PvP servers on Matrix Online.

Free For All/Open World PvP in these games always turned to uncontrolled/unchecked griefing (based mostly on my experience from UO, MxO and Aion's rift system) because penalties are never severe enough to limit the PK population (although from what I saw they were a bit more severe in Lineage II). For example in UO PK's roamed everywhere because death was meaningless, they could res, and macro back skills in a heartbeat and had alts to re-gear. There was no real penalty for PK'ing beyond having to log on an alt and res yourself at your house. Not to mention working off PK kills was as easy as parking your character in your house and going AFK while you went to work or something.

But anyways, that's my feeling on the matter. If penalties aren't high enough to ensure there are significant limits on PK'ing I'd rather play a next-gen MMO that offers me more consensual means of dividing my time, like TERA. I don't mind dying when I'm not trying to pvp if I know that the player actually truly RISKED something to kill me.

Im not going to make an elaborate response as i understand where you're coming from. I will say however that L2's system was very harsh...Dropping gear? Not to mention working off Karma was not a walk in the park. The game certainly was not an unchecked grief fest, and if thats how you perceived it then we obv just operate on different levels. At the end of the day people are going to PK you no matter the penalty, thats just the way it is, but i do feel L2 had a realistic amount of safety/danger.

[Synner]

Ballista, on 29 July 2010 - 02:00 AM, said:

Free For All/Open World PvP in these games always turned to uncontrolled/unchecked griefing

i dis-agree. L2's PvP system was hands down the most thought out and balanced of any game ive played so far. the flagging system was by far the best ive seen and if you PK'd someone there were stiff penalties and risk. OWPvP does NOT cater to griefing... actually the reverse is more often the case. in L2 if you were PK'd or griefed for whatever reason your clan was quick to jump in and fight/hunt the bitch that killed you... (well as long as your clan wasnt called Eternal Heroes they would... .....freaking cowards...)

but there are those people that look at there PK count as a badge of honor of sorts. im one of them (or i was at least) my perma-red Kamael Beserker spent a LOT of time being killed and ressed by Nyisias Dwarfy trying to wash the red away....

but seriously... in the future... please refrain from using "AION" and "PvP" in the same post... it's like fingernails on a chalkboard to me.

....speaking of AION... i think imma go gank some noobs in the abyss tonight just for shits and giggles.

[Romtim]

Power Incarnate, on 29 July 2010 - 11:49 AM, said:

Im not going to maker an elaborate response as i understand where you're coming from. I will say however that L2's system was very harsh...Dropping gear? Not to mention working off Karma was not a walk in the park. The game certainly was not an unchecked grief fest, and if thats how you perceived it then we obv just operate on different levels. At the end of the day people are going to PK you no matter the penalty, thats just the way it is, but i do feel L2 had a realistic amount of safety/danger.

i did play lineage 2 for 6 years, and i love its pvp system ;)

[Ballista]

Synner, on 29 July 2010 - 03:40 PM, said:

i dis-agree. L2's PvP system was hands down the most thought out and balanced of any game ive played so far. the flagging system was by far the best ive seen and if you PK'd someone there were stiff penalties and risk. OWPvP does NOT cater to griefing... actually the reverse is more often the case. in L2 if you were PK'd or griefed for whatever reason your clan was quick to jump in and fight/hunt the bitch that killed you... (well as long as your clan wasnt called Eternal Heroes they would... .....freaking cowards...)

but there are those people that look at there PK count as a badge of honor of sorts. im one of them (or i was at least) my perma-red Kamael Beserker spent a LOT of time being killed and ressed by Nyisias Dwarfy trying to wash the red away....

but seriously... in the future... please refrain from using "AION" and "PvP" in the same post... it's like fingernails on a chalkboard to me.

....speaking of AION... i think imma go gank some noobs in the abyss tonight just for shits and giggles.

"these games" referred to UO and MxO, as I didn't really play much of L2. From what I hear from you fellas though is that L2 had a great karma/penalty system, which makes me very happy to hear. ;*p when games actually have PK's who PK at a risk and PK hunter parties that is fun.

Admin, on 29 July 2010 - 11:47 AM, said:

There wasn't any real penalties for PK in Aion because it was faction-based. :3

lol that was the point - I dislike game design if PK'ing has no penalties. It makes it pointless and contributes to a grief problem. I wish I played more of L2 now so I had a better idea of it, because it doesn't sound like UO's fail karma system at all.


ps. what will it take to get a title of anything that's not newbie ; D i will craft 4 you <33

[gifthorse]

I love Jake Song. Like, I practically want to marry him.

On a side note. I hope people who go around complaining about a game with features which they don't like realise that no-one is actually forcing them to play it. If people dislike the danger/threat of being PKed and so on, then obviously they aren't the target demographic of any games which contain it. And instead of feeling sore over the issue, perhaps such people should simply play any of the other, more PvE centric games out there. Final Fantasy, for example.

PvP, in any of its forms (open world, faction, free for all) has its set of faults. But so does a game that is purely PvE. You can't have fun with built-in safety nets everywhere. Well, at least I can't.

People talk of the "risk" to PKers. But might benefit from thinking more about the risk to the general player base instead. PKers, though annoying, serve their own purpose in the world. They provide a constant threat and danger. Without this, the game wouldn't have the same atmosphere.

You can have a safe game with lots of restrictions or a dangerous game with lots of freedom. You can't really have both. I mean, really.

[Ballista]

gifthorse, on 30 July 2010 - 01:39 AM, said:

I love Jake Song. Like, I practically want to marry him.

On a side note. I hope people who go around complaining about a game with features which they don't like realise that no-one is actually forcing them to play it. If people dislike the danger/threat of being PKed and so on, then obviously they aren't the target demographic of any games which contain it. And instead of feeling sore over the issue, perhaps such people should simply play any of the other, more PvE centric games out there. Final Fantasy, for example.

PvP, in any of its forms (open world, faction, free for all) has its set of faults. But so does a game that is purely PvP. You can't have fun with built-in safety nets everywhere. Well, at least I can't.

People talk of the "risk" to PKers. But, forget that for a moment, and think more about the risk to the general player base instead. PKers, though annoying, serve their own purpose in the world. They provide a constant threat and danger. Without this, the game wouldn't have the same atmosphere.

You can have a safe game with lots of restrictions or a dangerous game with lots of freedom. You can't really have both. I mean, really.

No one is complaining about ArcheAge and it's features, since it's not out and we don't know the entire design of the game. My only contribution was that I hope there is a balance to keep PK'ing in check (and people on the boards here have said Lineage II did a great job at that).

[gifthorse]

Ballista, on 30 July 2010 - 02:51 AM, said:

No one is complaining about ArcheAge and it's features, since it's not out and we don't know the entire design of the game. My only contribution was that I hope there is a balance to keep PK'ing in check (and people on the boards here have said Lineage II did a great job at that).

Oh, by the way, I wasn't implying that you - or anyone else specifically - was wrong to want PK'ers in check. A game with rampant PvP probably wouldn't be much of a game after all. Well, because it just wouldn't be fun like that. Games like MMOs need at least a little bit of safety, now and then, in order to allows players the time to build things up. They need safety to build up their characters, and also to build up their towns, and houses and stuff. Constant PvP however is more concerned with tearing things down. So there is a fine balance to be struck between the two.

So, anyway, the moral of the story is that too much peace and harmony isn't fun, but neither is too much danger. It's fair to cry out in anger if one of these features destroys the other, for example, if PvP is undermined by people who need a security blanket with them at all times, or in contrast, if other aspects of the game are ruined by constant griefing and wanton destruction. But it isn't really a valid case to remove either one feature altogether. Though these things seem to be imcompatible, they aren't. It's just a matter of adjusting the two so that there is still some degree of peril, but not excessively so.

It pays to point this out because a lot of the time I encounter people who just flat out hate PKers. Common opinion being that all they do is destroy the fun for others. This attitude annoys me because I think sometimes people forget that PKers add another level to the game, one that actually makes it better, even if it doesn't seem so at the time.

[Nyisia]

I agree with Gift. A balance is the ideal situation. I still think it will be difficult if not impossible to obtain, but it would be ideal. II'm not real big on faction based PvP such as what Aion attempted. There have been many times that I wished I could kill the idiot on my side myself. Oh, and since it's an NCSucks game I've wanted to kill bots too....