[dengar]

One of the concerns among the crafting community is what will happen to the overall economy should ArcheAge, like many other MMOs, lack item decay. For those who may not understand this concept, item decay is the process in which an item is lost for good. Think of potions- you use them once and they're gone. You have to get a new one to use it again. It's not unheard of, and it's actually positive in some ways. When a large amount of effort is needed to make an item, the developers tend to make it a bit easier to acquire the item (for example, the best armor in Darkfall, which uses item decay, is far easier to get than the month+ it will take to get the best gear in WoW). It also means that the player base is rarely "done." When items can be lost or destroyed, the players must go out and get replacements or spares. The grind is going to happen, but as someone who's been doing dailies in WoW for far too long, I can say that I very much miss looking for more replacement gear. Dailies can eventually end- I don't hit old content dailies because I need nothing from them, and I do the current ones only for money, which I don't really need much of because of the way I earn armor.

So let's pretend for a moment that, as usual, nothing much will change between now and AA's release. No items will drop on death in PvP, and items won't decay. How can the economy go on?

Again, looking at WoW, we have some options. WoW may not have item decay, but it has consumables. Crafting materials can be used to give players buffs or make items better. Gem crafting destroys ore, potions destroy herbs, patches destroy cloth and leather, and enchanting destroys several items to power one up. This helps keep some of the supplies from being gathered up too high, and combined with the fact that WoW introduces new tiers of gear every 3 months or so, in addition to pets, mounts, and various other toys that act as a gold sink. Add in the fact that WoW players tend to have at least one alt to support, and people are constantly low on cash (trust me- I don't do alts these days, and I can support myself and other people decently without having to play more than a few hours a day, if that). WoW's economy works, but it's based on developers constantly having to add new items of a higher quality to extend the game's life. Personally, I'm not excited about this sort of economy, but there's some hope.

Unlike World of Warcraft, Rift, and even Darkfall, AA has some unique features we've heard about from various sources. Resources don't always respawn. Trees need to be replanted in order to harvest them again. The labor system prevents people from continually farming resources and may only refill for one character at a time. What does this mean? Should AA use a system similar to WoW's, its system creates a bottle neck on the resources one can successfully harvest and what can be crafted, slowing the process down based on RL time, not game time. If the system relies on developers needing to pump out gear in a fashion like WoW's, then the developers at least have some more time.

However, unlike WoW, AA is also aiming at sandbox gameplay with a siege system. The sandbox option means that, rather than just giving new armor or dailies that lead to toys, the developers can add new crafting recipes for furniture. Siege materials are a great money sink as well- stationary catapults, magical grenades, constructing a battering ram, scaffolding to get over walls... siege supplies can make for an excellent money sink option in addition to the WoW model.

Last, but not least, is the housing situation. Housing will probably be the biggest resource/money sink in the game. Players love having a home. Furniture, gardens, *cough* taxes... home owner ship will not be something to take lightly. The loss of a house through a new landlord raising taxes will definitely irk enough people to resiege control of a town. PvP looks like, at the very least, it will lead to repair bills, mount resurrection, and perhaps ship resurrections, plus some potions at the very least. It's a vicious cycle. And a profitable one depending on how much AA's going to let crafters help with repairs and whatnot.

Item decay certainly does add some interesting possibilities to an MMO, and lord knows I find it much more interesting than some other games' approach. However, a large amount of customization options for housing and personal property can be pretty fun. It certainly worked for Star Wars Galaxies. Add to it the very real possibility that someone else will come and take your home from you, and have a system in which players don't simply buy property and stockpile money to keep it. Activity on property ensures that others don't declare a siege on your town just because it's lightly defended. Should something happen and you do lose your home, you'll need to buy some sort of consumables (or use a stockpile of them) to get it back, even if it's just potions to keep you in the fray. All of this based on a system where resources are far from infinite, including labor. It's not as elaborate as EVE, but it seems to have a little more depth than WoW, and I can live with a compromise like that.

[Eldaran]

Im a huge fan of the easily replaceable items like Darkfall has. You never mind the item decay because everything can be crafted by you and your friends. I prefer that system over anything else.

[dengar]

Eldaran, on 22 August 2011 - 12:50 PM, said:

Im a huge fan of the easily replaceable items like Darkfall has. You never mind the item decay because everything can be crafted by you and your friends. I prefer that system over anything else.

Same! I would love it if AA does a 180 and says it's in, but I'm assuming it won't be. I think I read somewhere that raw resources may decay (not the nodes, but like wood you've collected and stockpiled) but I can't seem to find it.

Still, I think a consumable based economy in a game that has a real reason to pvp can do well. I know back when I played WoW and there were no instanced pvp zones or teleporting to dungeons/raids, I had an alchemist, and spent a lot of time making potions to protect Ratchet and Grom'Goll. They sold pretty well too, since raiders back then needed potions not only for the raid, but for the pvp that occurred on the way to the raid, heh.

[Entaro]

dengar, on 22 August 2011 - 01:53 PM, said:

Same! I would love it if AA does a 180 and says it's in, but I'm assuming it won't be. I think I read somewhere that raw resources may decay (not the nodes, but like wood you've collected and stockpiled) but I can't seem to find it.

The only thing I can recall regarding that is food spoiling, which someone asked them about and they said it was an interesting idea. It wouldn't really make sense for anything else.

[Xalic]

If all gear is crafted im all for item decay, then there is always a demand for new gear to be crafted and not have it like WoW where crafted gear is only good for the first month of a new expanson then its worthless.

[Kriegskind]

Good article. I am glad to see other's are looking at alternatives to WoW's "decay" system. I've played all the games you have mentioned. I personally found a mix between SWG and DF to be a good bet. I could not stand the lameness of WoW's so called "decay" system. I would much rather make it a personal quest to find the materials and a crafter, than have the item handed to me for grinding out an instance over and over.

I also liked SWG's personalization of items, in that they could be named. That said, item drop is probably farther from happening than a change in the decay system. But, I find it cool that if you were to lose a personalized item to another player. It is still linked to you or the crafter who made it. Thus opening up more avenues for adventure.

[Tyrogon]

i think that as long as they stay away from things like daily quests and make money sinks like ships, siege equipment, fort repairs, etc things will work out well. big thing is making sure money isnt easy to get. the game needs to make the players decide what they are going to do instead of giving a quest that tells them what to do. as long as they dont get people into a system of doing daily quests and jumping into instances the game should be good.

i also think that the labor system has the potential to be amazing. if they make enough labor sinks so people have to hire other people it could get really interesting.

[Eligor]

You need labor to do just about anything related to crafting, an example for this is:

You need to spend labor or an ore vein (let's call em veins), for your first efforts on cracking the ore shell you gain rock or something along those lines but now the iron/gold/whatever is exposed and you have to mine again to get it.

Ingame it's a bit more complicated and adds a lot more depth from what we've seen in other games with simplier crafting systems, not to mention I really simplified it to make an example that's easy-ish to follow.

Another example is that to get wood you need labor points to fell the tree then extra labor to harvest said tree. There are labor sinks all over the place which is a good thing, as Tyrogon said since -if anything- it promotes cooperation between players in order for them to craft or build stuff needed for their faction or just their guild or even just for their group.

[Vindor]

The game definitly needs somekind of a ressources and crafted item sink, other than repairs needed after a siege.

I am not a fan of item decay myself, and my solution to keep both crafter and gatherer busy would be a panel of crafted repair tools, with different quality and type for each repairable item.

Every single thing, as in real life, in the game would loose condition and need the appropriate quality and type repair tool and ressources to be repaired.

As i see it, that would kill two bird with one stone, creating a ressources and crafted item sink and preventing the world to get full of empty houses.

Anyway, even if its in the form of an item decay, a sandbox as heavily focused on gathering and crafting as AA seems to be wihout any ressources decay beside siege destruction wouldnt work that well imho.

[LlexX]

Have a hunch there will be an itemsink implemented with the item upgrading process, as we know now its 100% to upgrade an item, which increases its tier (effects the increase of weapons damage, armors defense, and the stats the items give), if i understand right there are 6 tires of items, your item starts as tier 1, so its 5 upgrades to reach the max tier, to upgrade an item the old item is needed and some resources to be able the craft the new item, after crafting the old item will disappear and you will have the new item in your inventory, now the upgrading process is with 100% success (can be understood since its a CB, and for testing purposes they didnt introduce the fail process).

Now imagine that there is a chance of upgrade failure, which results losing the old item and the resources you had collected for upgrading it.
I am sure that after the release it will be like this, and this would solve a way for itemsink.

[Cavarath]

Even if there will be a chance of failure, which i highly doubt, its just a temporary item sink and will never work for maximum tier items. Once many people reach that stage, which wont take long since leveling is fast, we will have the economy crashing.

There has to be a true item sink that works all the time. It doesnt have to be the decay strategy. It could also be destructions upon (theoretically) unlimited enchants on items. Or something similar.

Currently we dont have a working economic system in the game and the only way to have it going would be adding new item tiers and max levels, or in other words item resets like in wow, to keep it going. And thats what i really dont want to see.

[Laetitian]

Cavarath, on 16 February 2012 - 11:03 AM, said:

There has to be a true item sink that works all the time. It doesnt have to be the decay strategy. It could also be destructions upon (theoretically) unlimited enchants on items. Or something similar.

I do like the idea behind this.

The thing is: This would let the crafting have an immense impact on PvP.
Which is a good thing, at first, because it would not only decrease the chance of a dying trade-system, but even increase the general interest in it.

Well, but on the other hand, this would reduce the worth of actual skill in the fights - A matter which is often objected by players.


As I said, I would actually love to see this kind of content, but if something like this would be introduced, it would need a very slow item decay as well. That would solve the problem: Let all the richer ones have their risky-yet-powerful weapons, but have them destroyed after some 100 days of average gaming.

[Cavarath]

I dont have a problem with adding both or just one of them or anything else. But there has to be a true item sink of any kind or the economy is doomed!

[Vindor]

LlexX, on 16 February 2012 - 09:50 AM, said:

Have a hunch there will be an itemsink implemented with the item upgrading process, as we know now its 100% to upgrade an item, which increases its tier (effects the increase of weapons damage, armors defense, and the stats the items give), if i understand right there are 6 tires of items, your item starts as tier 1, so its 5 upgrades to reach the max tier, to upgrade an item the old item is needed and some resources to be able the craft the new item, after crafting the old item will disappear and you will have the new item in your inventory, now the upgrading process is with 100% success (can be understood since its a CB, and for testing purposes they didnt introduce the fail process).

Now imagine that there is a chance of upgrade failure, which results losing the old item and the resources you had collected for upgrading it.
I am sure that after the release it will be like this, and this would solve a way for itemsink.

Arent upgrade only for droped item ?
Anyway it would only slow the process down, not solve it imo.

Cavarath, on 16 February 2012 - 11:41 AM, said:

I dont have a problem with adding both or just one of them or anything else. But there has to be a true item sink of any kind or the economy is doomed!

I really hope they work something out, because otherwise this game looks so awesome it would be really sad to see its economy, craft and gathering becomes pointless after a few weeks/month.

[LlexX]

Vindor, on 17 February 2012 - 03:30 AM, said:

Arent upgrade only for droped item ?
Anyway it would only slow the process down, not solve it imo.

Dropped and crafted items can be upgraded, the quest items cant, they cant even be repaired.

In many asian MMOs you lose the item if upgrading fails, and in these games the item drop rate is rare too, its not like in wow where every 2nd mob drops an item, here u need to grind hours to get one.

[Veasna]

Very good, the item drops in WOW was way too much imo.

[Cavarath]

LlexX, on 17 February 2012 - 04:04 AM, said:

Dropped and crafted items can be upgraded, the quest items cant, they cant even be repaired.

In many asian MMOs you lose the item if upgrading fails, and in these games the item drop rate is rare too, its not like in wow where every 2nd mob drops an item, here u need to grind hours to get one.

It doesnt matter how long it will take. Its not working. It will collapse.
And crafted items seem to be pretty easy to get in ArcheAge.

[Asheron]

Personally, I don't favor item decay. There are other ways to keep characters from thinking they are 'done' in collecting gear without having to resort to Tier 9, Tier 10, etc., the best of which, imo, is to make gear very trophy-like, and ensure viability and competitiveness of low-end gear. Gear should never overcome a signifcant player skill advantage. In that case, gear is not meaningless, but it is collected primarily for fun and to have it, rather than as a 'gear score' minimum requirement. Who hasn't wanted to wear cool looking gear, or at least change up their gear from time to time, rather than always having to wear their maximum gear score gear?

In Asheron's call, trying to find uniquely colored armor pieces, with or without various enchantments, to make a set in the random loot system was a great default activity if you didn't have anything else special to do. Armor was mostly FASHION, which I really think is good from a design and gameplay standpoint. You might wear your OMGGGz cool looking gear in town or on adventures, but if you wanted to do 90% of your soloing in the MMO equivalent of sweatpants - the Starter Wand and Faran Robe with Hood - you could do that too and make out ok.

Gear as fashion can work in tandem with a 'gear score' mechanics, but certainly Warcraft is an epic fail on how not to end up with everyone wearing their standard gear all the time and every similar build wanting to wear the same equipment.

[Cavarath]

What has this to do with the economy not working because of not existing item sinks, please?

[Vindor]

Asheron, on 17 February 2012 - 03:14 PM, said:

Personally, I don't favor item decay. There are other ways to keep characters from thinking they are 'done' in collecting gear without having to resort to Tier 9, Tier 10, etc., the best of which, imo, is to make gear very trophy-like, and ensure viability and competitiveness of low-end gear. Gear should never overcome a signifcant player skill advantage. In that case, gear is not meaningless, but it is collected primarily for fun and to have it, rather than as a 'gear score' minimum requirement. Who hasn't wanted to wear cool looking gear, or at least change up their gear from time to time, rather than always having to wear their maximum gear score gear?

In Asheron's call, trying to find uniquely colored armor pieces, with or without various enchantments, to make a set in the random loot system was a great default activity if you didn't have anything else special to do. Armor was mostly FASHION, which I really think is good from a design and gameplay standpoint. You might wear your OMGGGz cool looking gear in town or on adventures, but if you wanted to do 90% of your soloing in the MMO equivalent of sweatpants - the Starter Wand and Faran Robe with Hood - you could do that too and make out ok.

Gear as fashion can work in tandem with a 'gear score' mechanics, but certainly Warcraft is an epic fail on how not to end up with everyone wearing their standard gear all the time and every similar build wanting to wear the same equipment.

What ?
Wrong thread/game ?