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Macros


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29 replies to this topic

#1
Narwhal

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I haven't heard much about macros regarding AA. I was wondering if they were available during any of the betas? Or are there future plans to implement them?

I honestly hate macros in MMOs. An extreme example of when macros go wrong is Rift. Players can literally macro entire rotations into situational macros. Essentially macros play the game for you. An example would be one macro for single target, another for ae, and another for CDs and burst. Gameplay now consists of 3 buttons. Its pretty frickin lame.

AA is similar to Rift in one way, all of the potential class combinations.

Here's to hoping macros aren't a feature in AA. I'm not saying mashing buttons take a lot of skill, but what skill it does involve, is negated by macros imo.
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#2
Cavarath

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I dont think there are currently macros in the game. But i dont think they would be a problem. I have played several games that featured macros up to now. And in all of those you was incredible worse with macros than without. You are just losing any flexibility.
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#3
Narwhal

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I dont think there are currently macros in the game. But i dont think they would be a problem. I have played several games that featured macros up to now. And in all of those you was incredible worse with macros than without. You are just losing any flexibility.


I honestly haven't played a sandbox in some years. Just because they are all either crap or fpv. So my experience is coming from competitive esport PvP and high end raiding. In those circumstances it is an absolute must to have macros in order to min/max your toon.

A game like AA with so many different combinations of classes, macros could easily be abused.

I'll use a War in WoW as another example. You macro different abilities with stances. Instead of manually changing your stance, you double click your attack and it does it for you. Switching between battle and berserker stances. You simply cannot out perform that macro by manually playing the game.

Another huge advantage to macros is buffs and debuffs. You don't even have to target, it does it for you and casts the ability.

I just find it to be a lame way to play a game.

I'm also almost certain there is an insta win macro in DF that is considered a requirement to compete. So there would be a sandbox example of macros going from a luxury to a necessity.
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#4
Renik

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Macros are needed to make good strategies in some games, and AA's combo system is similar to macros.
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#5
Mauzi

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Sad story but true: With today's games you cannot prevent macros being used in any game and actually will have to integrate proper game mechanics for players to make them un-abusable. This is, due to the many hardware and software solutions, people can freely macro at will anyways, no matter if you have a "no macro policy" with insta-ban or not since such only prevents macro driven farming but not macro driven combat (and that's where the true problem lies).

So, to not allow a huge advantage to those who use e.g. macro-ready hardware, the best bet would be to integrate some mechanics to allow macroing while having the general game mechanics preventing macros from being over-used (e.g. not spawning things at the exact same locations only but using a somewhat large area instead).

Or in short: Can't beat it ? Live with it and adapt.
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Thank you for reading, Mauzi.

#6
LlexX

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Im fine with macros and without them too, either option wont change my mood, and i will get used to it.

#7
Asphy

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Im fine with macros and without them too, either option wont change my mood, and i will get used to it.


Agreed. I've never needed to use macros, even when I had the opportunity. It makes no sense to me. : /
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"The Party and the Krikkit warship looked, in their writhings, a little like two ducks, one of which is trying to make a third duck inside the second duck, while the second duck is trying very hard to explain that it doesn't feel ready for a third duck right now, is uncertain that it would want any putative third duck to be made by this particular first duck anyways, and certainly not while it, the second duck, was busy flying." - Douglas Adams

#8
Narwhal

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Not to sound like an elitist, because I'm not. At this stage in my life I'm just a casual gamer. But not using macros in todays MMO's is like being a clicker compared to a button pusher. Sure, both are functional forms of gameplay, but one is significantly more effective than the other.

Good points Mauzi. I would say one proven deterrent to 3rd party macros is limiting the amount of skills that can be active at one time. I think Tera and GW2 have done a good job of this. It becomes more about timing instead of rotation. The more abilities available the bigger an impact macroing can have on a game imo.
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#9
Asphy

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being a clicker compared to a button pusher.


I do both. O.o
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"The Party and the Krikkit warship looked, in their writhings, a little like two ducks, one of which is trying to make a third duck inside the second duck, while the second duck is trying very hard to explain that it doesn't feel ready for a third duck right now, is uncertain that it would want any putative third duck to be made by this particular first duck anyways, and certainly not while it, the second duck, was busy flying." - Douglas Adams

#10
Amaterasu

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I haven't heard much about macros regarding AA. I was wondering if they were available during any of the betas? Or are there future plans to implement them?

I honestly hate macros in MMOs. An extreme example of when macros go wrong is Rift. Players can literally macro entire rotations into situational macros. Essentially macros play the game for you. An example would be one macro for single target, another for ae, and another for CDs and burst. Gameplay now consists of 3 buttons. Its pretty frickin lame.

AA is similar to Rift in one way, all of the potential class combinations.

Here's to hoping macros aren't a feature in AA. I'm not saying mashing buttons take a lot of skill, but what skill it does involve, is negated by macros imo.

There were no in-game macro options during CBT4. But with the keyboards available nowadays, that allows to create macros, it doesn't matter whether the game support it or not.
I'm skeptical about the usefulness though, due to the combat system and combos. One example is you starting a rotation, but then a team mate stuns the target, which allows to you place a skill that would potentially deal more damage. But since you're already in the middle of a rotation because of a macro, you can't do it in time and thus miss the chance. Or use a macro while your target has protection against X type of skills, or something. You will just end wasting all cooldowns.
Don't think macros users will have much advantage over others, really.
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#11
Laetitian

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I'm skeptical about the usefulness though,[...]

You are? Alright, "rotations", might not be clever, but you could actually bind one key to changing your complete armor-set, using one ability, and then changing back to the previousy armor-set. And as I perceived it so far, equipment-type will make a highly important factor for the skill-usefulness due to the mixed classes?! =)


Personally, I am very glad to play on my laptop. The first thing I do when entering a new game is investing what is never less than an hour to arrange my key-bindings and the interface. However, I think myself skilled and fast enough with that and have never played any character where I would have made use of macros.

But not using macros in todays MMO's is like being a clicker compared to a button pusher.

Why? Clickers are unseemly slow compared to button pushers. Why would button pushers suffer anything compared to those who use macros? My next skill always follows the global cooldown, and I am well capable of using WASD and my mouse to aim fastly and stay running when I need to.
EDIT: Also. Does the term 'to elmify' mean anything to you? =)
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#12
Narwhal

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@amaterasu the way you describe combat sounds a lot like vanguard. Not a bad thing. Hopefully they scale back the burst somewhat so we can fully appreciate the intricacies of combat.

@laetitian debuffing would be a good example of how macros out perform manual play. The macro user wouldnt need to aim or tab target. Macro does that for them. I suppose if that's the most egregious use of macros in AA then that's a good sign.

As far as rotation, its about management. Where someone not using a macro might need to memorize button placement for situational combat, x scenario occurs and so you know to press 2, 6, f, s, in succession. A macro would adjust that into 1 button. It's more efficient but also dumbing down gameplay. Which is why I'm against them.

I had to Google elmify and got a teenage girl on YouTube lol. I'm guessing it wasn't a compliment :(
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#13
LlexX

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Agreed. I've never needed to use macros, even when I had the opportunity. It makes no sense to me. : /

I never said that i didnt use them, if they were implemented into a game then i used them all the time, since i have programming skills it was easy to write them and it made playing allot easier, when a game has a big choice of skills then macros come handy (especially at checking buffs and debuffs).

#14
Asphy

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I never said that i didnt use them, if they were implemented into a game then i used them all the time, since i have programming skills it was easy to write them and it made playing allot easier, when a game has a big choice of skills then macros come handy (especially at checking buffs and debuffs).


Well foo to you too.
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"The Party and the Krikkit warship looked, in their writhings, a little like two ducks, one of which is trying to make a third duck inside the second duck, while the second duck is trying very hard to explain that it doesn't feel ready for a third duck right now, is uncertain that it would want any putative third duck to be made by this particular first duck anyways, and certainly not while it, the second duck, was busy flying." - Douglas Adams

#15
Amaterasu

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You are? Alright, "rotations", might not be clever, but you could actually bind one key to changing your complete armor-set, using one ability, and then changing back to the previousy armor-set. And as I perceived it so far, equipment-type will make a highly important factor for the skill-usefulness due to the mixed classes?! =)

Well afaik you can't switch your armour during combat, and the game already automatically switch the weapons for the player depending on the skill. I really can't think of any advantage a macro user would have in combat, which is I believe the competitive aspect of the game where it could be troublesome?
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#16
Mauzi

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I really can't think of any advantage a macro user would have in combat, which is I believe the competitive aspect of the game where it could be troublesome?


Actually, I would rephrase this as "the most direct game-breaking advantage" being in combat. And of course even that can possibly be extended to silly levels e.g. by injecting data into the game's data stream to allow otherwise impossible actions or combos. This happens especially easily too many / the wrong checks are done client-side instead of server-side.

Other uses of macroing will ruin the game aswell if not handled properly, though "only" over time: Macroing farming mobs or ressources. Luckily, the need to plant new seeds for such makes it harder, yet I cannot see it being impossible if you are clever. Or know someone who was clever enough to write such macro. Or can use google to find such on the webz. Gold-farmers being named here, but luckily this games comes from the country of gold-farmers, so we could hope that they know how to handle that.

Anyhow... basically, if something that gives you even the faintest advantage is possible to macro, it will be done and the macro will be spread. Only clever ingame mechanics can avoid such, e.g. spawning items at random places in your inventory combined with the existing "one-time" ressources. But also you will need to prevent an injection style of macroing that directly interfers with the data stream. Just looking at macroing a few key presses that might spoil combat isn't even half the story of existing issues with macroing.
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#17
Miyafuji

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If you can kill mobs by macro, aka use skill 1,2,3, all the same procedure then there is something very wrong with the game.

As it comes to myself I'm against any macro usage or any game part automatization.

I can see AA passing without any macro system involved.

When i played L2 there was macro system, but I used it pretty much only for buffs /trade shouting / various commands. It was useless in combat completely, as it should be.
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#18
Tais

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To me if there is a 'need' for macro's then it is usually addressing some shortcoming of the game itself, usually to skip some of the more boring parts of the game... such as gathering. For instance in Darkfall there was no loop function with harvesting at the start, so macros were almost essential and later on with the grinding of skills.. macros were again very useful.
AA shouldn't really need macros with gathering as far as I can tell, mainly due to the labor point system.

Hopefullly there will not be a need in AA at all for a 3rd party macro system.
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#19
TaZ

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Ya i found the L2 macros very slow too, thou for some stuff they were usefull, but as for combat.
Well i prefer to play my class, where i use my skill as needed, not as a chain.
I Played a PlainsWalker in Lineage2. So even if i could chain my skills, i would risk to waste MANA.. Wich would take entirely too long to regain!
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#20
LlexX

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I have no idea why is everyone thinking about the 1 button combat when macros are mentioned, there are million ways to use them, and in some cases they are essential if the game code is broken, such as:

To me if there is a 'need' for macro's then it is usually addressing some shortcoming of the game itself, usually to skip some of the more boring parts of the game... such as gathering. For instance in Darkfall there was no loop function with harvesting at the start, so macros were almost essential and later on with the grinding of skills.. macros were again very useful.
AA shouldn't really need macros with gathering as far as I can tell, mainly due to the labor point system.

I had the same issues as Tais with some other games, its boring when you have to go to a resource node and click every time to gather, instead of just one click and it should keep gathering until the node is gone, then you manually move to the next node and do it again, less time wasting for a boring part of the game. But as Tais mentioned this cant be applied to AA because of the labor point system.

And for example for crating, in some games when you were crafting, you had to manually click each time when crafting an item, but using macros you could define a button for crafting which upon activation would start crafting and wouldnt stop until you run out of resources, its way more comfortable to level the crafting skills like this, instead of thousand monotone clicking.

One button combat macro:
Is for unskilled players, you will lose more DPS with this type of combat, then gain. But in other hand its a nice solution for the "noobs" who dont really have MMO skills, to do a bit better DPS when without it.

Tab targeting macro:
Never understood people who were using these macros, if you have 1-2-3 mobs is it really that hard to click the tab key a few times? And for PvP such as SW, its totally useless, the "target lowest HP mob" the mostly used target macro is just useless for PvP, there you have to play smart, take down the healers first most of the time, stun this, stun that... you need to be well coordinated and switch targets many times during a SW, and a macro cant do that.
Tanks target macro is for example sometimes is very useful tho, especially when the tank starts yelling on TS to "Kill my target you fking morrons", then you just hit this button and take the mob down.




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